What people think of Two Towers (*SPOILERS*)

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
This second time of seeing the movie - the film broke at the entmoot scene. The theater started the movie back up within 5 - 10 minutes - but they gave everyone free passes.

What? You got free passes? We were just about to finish the 'exorcism' scene (you know the part where Gandalf points his staff and Saruman is thrown backwards) when the reel froze. We waited for a moment, then realized that that wasn't supposed to happen. While the movie people rushed to shut it off, the frame started getting red and orange spots on it and began to melt. We had to wait 15 minutes for them to splice off that 3-4 seconds. And no free passes. Oh well, it was good for a laugh anyway.

Moving on to the movie itself - generally very good. There were points where I asked myself "Why?", but the good definitely outweighed the bad. People have already pointed out most of the good, so I'll give my takes on the bad.

The Bad:
Theoden's 'exorcism': What was that? He looked like something out of The Evil Dead and I half-expected his head to start spinning around and spitting green pea soup at any moment. I think the scene would have been better if he had just been slumped and maybe slightly 'drugged'. Then it would have been cool to have Gandalf and Wormtongue engage in a battle of words over Theoden.

Faramir (most of the time): Why couldn't he have just had his little change of heart at Henneth Annûn? It would be so much better than taking Frodo and Sam all the way to Osgiliath. (Why didn't PJ just ask me? ) Oh and what was the line from the first movie, "They [the Nazgûl] will never stop hunting for it." The Nazgûl on his steed sure didn't make much of an effort with the Ring right there in front of him.

Aragorn's 'death': What's the point? He doesn't even make a triumphant return at a critical moment. Like someone already said (sorry I don't remember who) - one time is enough to pull that trick.

Some special effects: Particularly the ones with Merry and Pippin on Treebeard. With all that technology at their disposal, I think that they could have made that look better.


As much as it sounds like I'm complaining, I actually really liked this movie. I'll definitely be going back.

[Lord Theseus]

Many of us loved FotR because we had low expectations for it. Thus our expectaions for Two Towers were too high.

Some of the scenes were great.

But the end of Helms deep lacked a good closing..i.e. tending of the wounded..and trip to isengard...it was just blah.

And who knows what was up with the change in Faramir. Tolkien's was straight to the point, and more easy to understand..

anyway..still decent movie. Hopefully RoftK will be sweet and contain all the main plot lines...including the scouring of the shire.

[Arathorn]

I'll be watching TTT in about 48 hrs and don't mind all the spoliers. I've read the books and I've set my mind for a good ride; at least as far as the spectacles are concerned (I believe Cirdan said something about Arwen's profile ).

Great reviews guys! I agree with JD, Lord Theseus and others that it all comes down to expectations. JD had such high hopes for FOTR while those who were disappointed with TTT pegged the TTT volume as their favorite. I'm honestly quite worried about ROTK because it's my favorite part. I'm just pinning my hopes that PJ will do it justice next year since IT IS his favorite of the 3 films.

'Must lower my expectations....
'Must lower my expectations....

I think I'll watch David Lynch's Dune film just before going to see TTT.

[Laurelyn]

It was interesting the way they started with the beginnings of the Battle of the Peak. Ok, so I was reminded distinctly of Harry Potter's dreams of Voldemort when Frodo woke up and said it was only a dream, but that was okay.

At first I thought, great, this is going to be really true to the canon. This thought was mostly due to the abundance of lines that are taken directly from the book at the beginning.
Then the canonical lines faded away, which was okay, because the dude sitting next to me seemed to think they talked funny. It was really getting on my nerves. He was snickering and bugging me.
Was it just me, or were the faces in the dead marches those of the Fellowship? Before Frodo fell in, of course. Once he fell in it was a Weathertop replay. Gah. They could have just left him on dry land where he belonged.
Although I must say there was something fitting about dumping him in the water. The changes Frodo underwent during the movie weren't for the better for his sake (but they were done wonderfully; more about that later), and so it was a rather ominous bit of foreshadowing. Or am I just reading more into the way it was done than was really there?
The Taming of Smeagol wasn't as powerful as it could have been. I was a bit disappionted.
The CGI of Gollum went well. A lot of the CGI i've seen lately has been disappointing, but gollum was good.
Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas's tracking job was amusing. Very amusing. Namely, Gimli's line about not being a cross-country runner. I am a cross-country runner, so that was really funny to me. I thought it was a bit obnoxious that Gimli had to be all the comic relief in that half of the film; it would have made more sense had they had somebody else with a funny line too. Ah, well. If anyone of the Three Companions was to be a buffoon, Gimli was the one, and he actually did a good job of being amusing and remaining serious.
The orcs that captured Merry and Pippin were too human-looking. That just bugged me. Also, I didn't think that the despair of those two really got through. Fear, yes, but for a while, they were just the same bright-eyed comic-relief hobbits as ever. And then, very abruptly, they became a lot less innocent talking to Treebeard.
The horsemanship was impressive. So was Eomer.
Eowyn was awesome. She was . . . wonderful. (anyone who knows what that word means to me; yes, I mean it.)
Fangorn forest bugged me. Do forests really rise that abruptly out of the middle of nowhere? And they don't look that . . . empty. The CGI of the Ents was okay, although they looked too human. Their legs were too long. And they didn't look like they could be real trees.
Aragorn's figurin out what happened to Merry and Pippin was brilliant, although I do wish they'd included Legolas's line about 'grew wings and flew.'
Gandalf was wonderful. It was kind of neat the way Aragron's sword burned.
Gwerp. Hated the excorcism bit. Why, that was as bad as the wizard-duel crap in FOTR. Or worse. It downplays the true power of the Istari, imho.
However, it's been rumoured that PJ cut the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard. I don't think he did -- too many dramatic possibilities -- but if so the Theoden/Gandalf/Saruman exorcism deal could stand in in representation.
Then again, that's not a good thing.
Even if he does leave in that scene? He's screwed up half of it by revealing Gandalf's reincarnation as Gandalf the White to Saruman. Crap.
All right, I admit that I didn't dislike the exorcism scene so much. But as to what it meant was altered in ROTK? AARGH!
End rant.
Wait, though – did anyone else think it was ridiculous to have Araogron say, “okay,” to Gandalf as he leaves? I thought that was way not-Arda talk.
I was pleased that the Wargs were included. They were okay CGI. I thought they looked like teddy bears with their noses punched in.
Aragorn's apparent death was baloney. Eventually, it was a good way to organize the explanation of Saruman’s forces, but it was still baloney. Although it was funny when the horse nuzzled him. That was sort of cute. And the look in Eowyn’s eyes both when she thought he was dead and when she realized he was alive was impressive.

[Draken]

Well... will need to see it again! Some things disappointed me but if you switch off your preconceptions and just enjoy the film it's...well...enjoyable!

Liked the battle with the Balrog, liked the trashing of Isengard, Gollum was superb and his schizophrenic musings a highlight. The Battle of Helm's Deep certainly had certain grandeur to it... suppose it would be more tense if I hadn't known who wins it.

Faramir.... why?

Aragorn's fall/float/waking up... why? (Remembers it gave an excuse for an extra Liv Tyler scene). Ok, cancel that, that was fine.

Warmed more to Eowyn than I thought I would - she had such cute freckles, which helped - but Arwen retains the "best way to fill a dress" award.

All in all, was good.

[Laurelyn]

Arwen and Elrond’s conversation was nice. Although non-Tolkienites probably got confused at the mention of Valinor. But what the heck is PJ intending? (oh, and by the way, I think the movie would have been great with 99% less kisses)
The sight of the 10,000 Uruk-hai was breathtaking.
The women and children crying and awaiting their death was also breathtaking. Mela Eru, but that was some really impressive acting.
And if I were the crying type I might have had tears in my eyes as Theoden recites his poem and we see the children – they’re not really young men, only boys – with the helmets slipping over their eyes, which are wide in the kind of terror only a child can express so simply. Kudos to PJ for that image. That was so, so, incredibly powerful. It was the picture of a people almost without hope; with the only thing driving them to be fear.
The Elves showing up was okay. I didn’t mind that. It worked well for the film.
The Uruks having grenades got to me. Just the way it was done. Too Hollywood-esque, too modern, too cliché that ten elves can’t friggin’ hit the one friggin’ Uruk.
Gollum’s conversations with himself were funny. That was good. At that point in time we needed a laugh. He did those just like a forensics piece, changing everything each time he was Gollum or Smeagol.
PJ”s trying to get more out of that “nobody tosses a dwarf” joke than there is to it. L
Entmoot was a congregation of mediocre CGI beings. Merry and Pippin’s standing up to Treebeard was interesting, but very abrupt.
Gandalf leading Eomer and Co. down the slope was impressive. Scary looking. What if one of them fell? But I didn’t have too much trouble with the plot-scrambling.
I was ticked that PJ didn’t leave in Sam’s line about how Frodo seems to be shining. I knew he wouldn’t, but it was disappointing. The Oliphaunts went well, for Oliphaunts.
Faramir bugged me. Enough said. I appreciate why PJ & Co altered his character, but I didn’t like it too much. At least they could have given him a smile. A little spark of spirit or hope. But they didn’t, which royally creeped me out.
I’d waited all year in anticipation of seeing the Ents storm Isengard. It went well. Saruman’s look of utter disbelief was hilarious. The breaking dam was a pretty impressive shot, and seeing the water plunge down into the depths of the caverns. I was pleased they haven’t yet included the Rolling Spiked Wheelie Dealie. Hopefully they never will.
Osgiliath. *cough* Well . . . Sam telling Faramir off went fairly well, actually. I thought that would be a mistake. The Nazgul’s timely appearance was interesting, but I thought that the instant terror it inspired seemed just a tad fake.
Frodo’s approaching the Ringwraith with the Ring was an impressive way to bring together all of Frodo’s character struggles up til that point. Not what I would have done, but interesting. That and his near killing Sam pulled together all the rage had wrought in him during the movie. The whole thing was good, what they did with Frodo.
I thought that people who haven’t read the book would be confused by the ending. It seemed like PJ managed a cliffhanger even without Shelob. It’ll work.
And then there was Mount Doom. I have yet to figure out why it’s continually erupting, but oh well.

I loved the movie. IN case you couldn’t tell.

[Gerbil]

Another horrid flashback - Legolas shield-surfing down the stairs.
I don't care if it's 'cool', it was crap, stupid dire, awful etc.

The note about Uruks + grenades is true enough - Saruman had foreseen what the problem would be at Helm's Deep and had worked his 'industrialised' magic to create gunpowder. That the arrows didn't bring down the Uruk with the flame I can put down to some of the Uruk bezerkers not knowing pain - IE unless one of the arrows was outrightly fatal, he could carry on (albiet with manky arms) and do his job.

Oh, about the dam. Sorry, but this bit annoyed me.
Why would Saruman deliberately dam that stream? He wouldn't. He'd firstly foresee it would be a weak point over Isengard (1 rock and it came down as I recall), and secondly he'd use the water flow to power wheels to power his industry.
Once again, PJ has kept in just enough of the books to make the film even weaker.

Oh, and all the kids laughed hysterically when the burning ent dashed in to put out the fire. I had little empathy for the Ents in the film - whereas in the books you understand them much better.
Treebeard was pretty good in the film (visualisation-wise) but once again we have yet another character short-changed by PJ's meddling.

I don't understand most of PJ's changes, and fear I never will. The best I can hope for is to simply accept them. He might be a fantastic director, but he sure can't do screenplays. If I hear that 'his version' one more time I'm going to scream.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas's tracking job was amusing. Very amusing. Namely, Gimli's line about not being a cross-country runner. I am a cross-country runner, so that was really funny to me.

Yes!! Me too!! I thought it was hilarious!
Other than that though... I changed my sig...

The warg-riders battle looked excellent, but it was pointless...
Helm's Deep was an awesome battle, but it's not that important in the books.

It seems that they took a piece out of almost everyone's character.

Theoden was worse than I could have imagined. All of the points where he demonstrates his character got removed. He doesn't propose the charge, he doesn't start a war, he doesn't do cr*p! I almost hoped he'd die. I'm actually looking forward to his death in RotK. They wouldn't get rid of that... would they?

Aragorn should have Anduril. OK? He should not have doubts about his power like they give him in the movie.

Saruman's character flaws have already been hit by Gerbil.
Well said, Gerbil.

The Ents looked cool. That was it. Treebeard had no character development, no sense of connection with the forest! He's supposed to know that the trees have been cut by Saruman.

Frodo is being corrupted, true. But he never could have attacked Sam. And about them thinking about running through the Black Gate? STUPID STUPID STUPID NOT TRUE ARRRGH!

The Easterlings were pretty stupid. Why didn't they poke the cloak with those spears?

Faramir shouldn't have wanted the Ring. Major chip off a great character. Zero Points, Peter Jackson.

Merry and Pippin did ok, but they're screwed now. They're at Isengard alone... who's gonna come get them? They have 3 choices for the Return of the King:
get horse & go to Minas Tirith
bring an Ent to Minas Tirith
just exit the movie

Gandalf came out OK but he wasn't used nearly enough.
Eomer totally got the shaft; see Gandalf.
Sam shouldn't encourage Frodo to use the Ring. Other than that he's OK.
Gollum seems to be pretty good. Lucky. He's the only one.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Elrond shouldn't be encouraging Arwen to leave. "Well, you shouldn't marry him even if he does become king." WHAT? Extremely poor taste.

Arwen shouldn't leave. Dumb.

Eowyn, actually, seems pretty well done! Although if she had been at Helm's Deep, she would have gotten a piece of the action.

Haldir dies. That's just stupid.

[Churl]

Gerbil wrote:

If I hear that 'his version' one more time I'm going to scream.

I think this is a problem of semantics, Gerbil. When we're comparing the books to the movie, we make references to particular scenes. When there are differences, clarity requires us to specify which source we're talking about — book or film. I think it's valid to use "Tolkien's" when citing the book and "Jackson's" when citing the films' deviations from the book.

Speaking for myself, I never use the phrase "Jackson's version" to imply that the film's creative liberties are now somehow part of the Tolkien canon. Instead, the films are — and always will be — imperfect approximations, adaptations, interpretations, etc. I doubt that even Jackson and his team would suggest otherwise.

The short form: I don't think that any of us intend any disrespect to Professor Tolkien when we refer to "Jackson's version" … I think we're merely differentiating between the films from the book.

[Cirdan]

Did anyone notice that Treebeard is Gimli (John Rhys-Davies' features and voice-over)? At first I thought it was just the accent but as I listened it was definitely him.

[Devey]

Why are people so hung up about Faramir. In my opinion it is Tolkiens Faramir that is totally wrong and Jackson got it absolutely correct. Tolkien expects us to believe that Faramir has the strength to resist the ring (so close to Mordor as well) yet the race of men have been shown to be incapable. Also even Gandalf and Gladriel were nearly tempted yet Faramir some how resists because he has made an oath...for goodness sake.......

To me the most powerful part of a spectacular film was when Frodo is standing infront of the Ringwraith in Osgiliath.......totally powerless and ready to surrender to the forces of evil...........it was this more than anything that really showed the power of the ring, of Mordor, and just what a perilious quest they had embarked on. Now I know it wasn't in the book but so what, it was great drama and spectaciular cinematography.

Loved gollum although took a while to get used to him....it was so obviously cgi to look at but the character was acted so well that he became "real" The only part I didn't like was legolas surfing down the steps, which was a bit toe curling

[Cirdan]

Aragorn is of the race of Men and it was convenient for him to resist the ring. Faramir, like his father has the gift of foresight. He does lust for the ring but knows it is hopeless. I suppose now Denethor will be just another decadent old prune like the movie Theoden. The Nazgul at Osigiliath did nothing for me since I saw it as too improbable that it wouldn't just swoop down and take the ring. It looked cool but it did nothing for the story save distract from the other action going on. I would have prefered the contrast of the armies in one scene versus the solitary hero in another. It just became more of the same. I was hoping that it would end on the stairs of Cirith Ungol with the ringwraith confrontation there.

[Churl]

Devey wrote:

In my opinion it is Tolkiens Faramir that is totally wrong and Jackson got it absolutely correct.

Yikes … I'll be the last one to attack anyone's opinions on the book vs. film question. What's more, Entmoot is one of the friendliest and most civil discussion boards I've ever seen. Still — even though I disagree — that was a rather brave first post, Devey! Hope you have your asbestos undergarments handy…

[Devey]

better go and put them on.......

okay I think we can all agree that just because an author builds a character it doesn't mean that it is beyond criticism. My least favourite character has always been Faramir because I could never reconcile the reasons that I talked about in the last post. Also it was too much of a cliché to have a good brother/bad brother bit. I also liked the Boromir character and felt that Faramir, by being "so nice" just made Boromir to be weak, which was unfair. Better in my eyes to have the race of men weak against the corruptible power of the ring, but also manage in the end to struggle and overcome it...ie the message is there is hope for mankind........
Jackson's Faramir is more in keeping with the one I always hoped he would be. Just because Tolkien wrote him how he did doesn't mean I have to agree with him unquestioningly does it?

[azalea]

I want to start by saying that I LOVED FotR. I thought that, despite its omissions and changes, it was an EXCELLENT film. Maybe that is why I was disappointed with TTT. It had both the books AND the FotR to be compard to, in my mind.

I really liked TTT, but the changes made in this film bothered me a lot, whereas in Fellowship, I could see how they were necessary. I felt like PJ sacrificed a LOT of dialogue, and therefore characterization, for his pet changes and additions.

Faramir was by far the most disappointing one. I thought the actor was good, but his characterization was mangled, IMO. Part of who he was in the book was the contrast of his personality form Boromir. PJ failed Faramir in making this change.

My main problem with this film was that it felt way WAY too rushed. Even more than FotR, which I didn't think was possible.
I LOVED the ents, but he gave them only a blip of screen time. This was where PJ's dialogue cuts bothered me the most. What would have been wrong with allowing the conversation between the hobbits and Treebeard to last longer? I can just hear him saying in the dvd commentary, "We had to get out of Fangorn quickly..." Too few ents at the entmoot, and since they hadn't set up the ents' character enough beforehand, something of the character of the ents was lost. But they looked SOOO GOOOOOD! Actually BETTER than I had imagined!

There were many minor changes that were unnecessary. I was unhappy to see Gimli's character turned into comic relief. To me, the hobbits were understandable in Fellowship and it worked for me, but this is different. I felt like the Arwen flashback stuff and cutting back to Rivendell played out choppily.

I too hated the change in the "awakening" of Theoden. I felt like the book's version needed no change, and was pointless. Theoden's attitude once he was awakened was a needless change as well.

Just like in Fellowship, but much more so in TTT, PJ chooses action over quality story development. Instead of letting events unfold and characters interact, he just sets up one action scene after another. Aragorn's "death" -- absolutely unnecessary IMO.

Now that my "yucks" are out of the way:

I LOVED seeing the Wargs, although it went too long (which cut out film time better used elsewhere) and they were different than I had pictured. The oliphaunts, Easterlings, etc., were great.

the beginning of the film, though rushed, was really good (Gandalf v Balrog, tracking the hobbits, etc.) Eowyn was good. I especially liked the addition of the little exchange between her and Grima, who, bTW, was EXCELLENT (and needed more lines). I also liked the elves showing up at HD: it was a change that was well done. Haldir's death scene was outstanding (but sad ). I liked the dead marshes, but thought again that the little falling in the water incident was just time taken from other parts. I pictured the "lights" as being different too.

One of my fave scenes, and I knew it would be -- the Rohirrim encircling Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. I melted w/ joy. That whole part was great. (I had always pictured the Rohirrim, Eowyn, etc., with hair that was a much lighter blond though, like a yellowy white, even lighter than Legolas)

In sum, this was a great movie. I think it is just hard because as I said my expectations were so high because of my love of Fellowship, I have many more criticisms of TTT. PJ's main fault -- a choppy and rushed film. I will definately be seeing it again in theaters, and man, a lot more than Shelob's been moved to RotK. I wanted to see more of the glittering caves, confrontation at Isengard (voice of Saruman, palantir), yada. A whole year!

Edit: oh and I loved the winged Nazgul although yes, it was impluasable that they wouldn't just go get It. I also thought the addition of Frodo attacking Sam was well done.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Devey
...Just because Tolkien wrote him how he did doesn't mean I have to agree with him unquestioningly does it?

Of course not... ...submit to the master... Really. You don't even have to like Tom Bombadil... ...submit to the master...

[Sween]

just been out for lunch with my friend who has seen the movie (ive got to wait till sunday ). He was completally spoiler free going into the movie (are any of us here really that) but he had read the books and loved them. He was kinda surprised but when i explained to him the reasons he kinda understood.

But overal he loved it.

[Laurelyn]

I noticed that the change in tone stayed in. I was surprised at that because i didn't think PJ would do it. But perhaps it was necessary?
TTT isn't so much about the OBJECT of the Ring as FOTR was. It's more about the effects it has. That was interesesting, and i expect it to circle back around in ROTK>

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by Devey
Jackson's Faramir is more in keeping with the one I always hoped he would be. Just because Tolkien wrote him how he did doesn't mean I have to agree with him unquestioningly does it?

cripes. Well yeah, PJ was going to make an adaptation of the film right? Based on the books? What gives him the right to just change characters around. I liked Faramir how he was and then in the end I thought he was perfect for Eowyn how he was! Gah, dont even get me started on how he killed Gimli's character. Ok, We get it HES SHORT!! >.<
But oh welll...Ive come to accept to accept the movie. I think Lord Theseus was right, my expectations were waay to high. Im going to see it again, it couldnt have been *that* bad right? There were some good points!
~Celebréiel