Arwen in the Movie, How did you feel about her?

[Gerbil]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Gerbil, you're walking into a mine field, I'd suggest you get the hell out!

You forget - I'm only a little gerbil, not nearly heavy enough to set off mines

[jerseydevil]

Here's my thoughts on how Jackson is going to expand Arwen's character in Two Towers and Return of the King.

What ommission would be most unwelcome in the next two films?

[Vardasoroniel]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Hmmm me wonders whether the people who think that Arwen with a sword is strong are actually male? As in it's not so much empowering women, but possibly playing up to men quite liking the dominant image (eg Xena, Dark Angel, Buffy etc - yes I know they appeal to women, but let's be honest, the roles are primarily female because it appeals to MALES).

i did not mean to open such a minefield!

let me try to clarify what i meant when i used that ill-chosen word 'strong'. i meant that i appreciated that PJ had enlarged the role of Arwen -- made that role, a female role, more exciting and prominent.

subjectively, i especially appreciated it because i mentor a small group of young women - 6th to ninth grade (12 to 14 yrs of age) - who due to certain circumstances feel particularly vulnerable and powerless in the living situations they find themselves in.

when we read the FOTR, they naturally picked powerful male characters to identify with - gandalf & saruman as powerful wizards who have great control over their circumstances; aragorn as the strong, silent, ' i know where i'm going and am in control of how i'll get there' sort of guy; legolas & elrond for their ability to distance themselves emotionally from the troubles of the world of men and their self-assuredness. they assumed that being female meant 'weak/passive' and that male meant having some control over the direction of your life.

none of them could identify with galadriel - she seemed too 'mothery' for them; & no one wanted to identify with arwen - she was just strider's 'girlfriend'.

but the portrayal of arwen in the movie opened new avenues of exploration for them. they could identify with a female character who was capable, decisive, intelligent, independent in her thinking - a 'strong', powerful character, & FEMALE.

& that, basically, is what i meant to say when i first opened that can of worms by saying arwen in the movie was a strong woman character.

i can't wait to see, now, how PJ forms the character of eowyn!

[mirrille]

let me try to clarify what i meant when i used that ill-chosen word 'strong'. i meant that i appreciated that PJ had enlarged the role of Arwen -- made that role, a female role, more exciting and prominent.

OK. I can appreciate that. I just have some issues about the way it was done. I've already explained why I feel that that tactic had more the effect of trivializing her than otherwise, so I won't go into that again. I have little problem with giving Arwen a little more screen time, but it is important to me what they use that screen time for. But what you are saying is fair enough.
But I also hope that those girls that you mentor will also see that "not agressive/combatative" does not always mean "weak/passive". But as you mentioned, "self-assured" is really the way to go.
I'm interested in what you do? Is this mentorship a volunteer thing, or is it related to your job?

I really want Eowyn to be done well. Out of the "minor" (i.e. non fellowship) characters, she is one of my favourites. I hope the movie can capture some of her personal struggle. But of course, there are time constraints in such a production.

[Vardasoroniel]

Originally posted by mirrille
. . . But I also hope that those girls that you mentor will also see that "not agressive/combatative" does not always mean "weak/passive". But as you mentioned, "self-assured" is really the way to go.
I'm interested in what you do? Is this mentorship a volunteer thing, or is it related to your job? . . .

one of the issues the young women are trying to work through is exactly that they don't have to choose one side or the other from what appears to be an either/or situation. their own characters can run on a continuum of traits they can choose, reject, rechoose, re-evaluate . . . etc., etc. they are not locked into their 'roles' nor do they need to 'lock' themselves in. their sense of self assuredness will allow them to act in situations with a confidence that they can choose the best course of action for the variables provided.

as for what i do - i'm an RN(registered nurse) & mentoring is an enjoyable, rewarding volunteer part of my life.

[mirrille]

(nodding very happily.)

That is so true, what you just said. It's so important not to get locked into a role and to choose for yourself what you want to be. Your girls are lucky to have you as a mentor. Good for you! It must be so rewarding for you.

[LuthienTinuviel]

i didn't like much how PJ showed her, i mean, they take out the coolness of Galadriel's gift giving to put in a love scene with the line "do you remember when we first met?"
oh god, someone pass the drain cleaner
otherwise the movies were cool, most of the oh so intelligent kids i went with didn't understand the movie, so i was explaining it over and over, but still it was fun. very expertly cast, esp. Legolas * sigh *

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

Originally posted by Gerbil

You forget - I'm only a little gerbil, not nearly heavy enough to set off mines

LOL...No... Ive seen you set off plenty of mines in the past.

[Eleruin]

Arwen has always been my least favorite character, what with her coming to Minas Tirith out of nowhere and marrying Aragorn when he obviously loved Eowyn. Though I realize her part in the movie was (at least partly) done to relieve this annoyance, I think I would've liked it better as it was in the books, with Glorfindel and Elrond helping Frodo to Rivendell. It always annoys me when the movie doesn't follow the book (I thought very little of the Dune movie, and Harry Potter could have been more specific). I mean come on, they turned half a paragraph of her getting Elrond his coffee into this big I'm-an-elven-warrior-princess scene! Darn feminists..... I'm just glad they didn't make her a full-blown part of the Fellowship! That's what I was afraid of, and it would've totally killed it for me.

>ahem< Also, on a side note:

It still kills me though that when ever I see her being interviewed either in a mag or on TV, she (or the article) always mentions that she can speak Elvish....like she can speak it fluently, when actually she is just quoting lines of dialogue.

--Anduin

For those of us fans who actually know some Elvish, if you listen close enough to her speech (or anyone's for that matter), it makes absolutely no sense! It's random syllables! (Sorry, I like to gripe about the petty things )

And one more gripe (I could gripe about Arwen all day): What they did with her part reminded me of The Rock's role in The Mummy Returns: they seemed to be using Liv Tyler's celebrity as a promotion (to attract Liv Tyler fans who'd never heard of LOTR, perhaps?) when really she was only in a couple of scenes. That annoys me.

So, if you didn't get the picture already, I don't like Arwen.

-Eleruin of Arnor

PS Aragorn rules!

[Captain Stern]

And one more gripe (I could gripe about Arwen all day): What they did with her part reminded me of The Rock's role in The Mummy Returns: they seemed to be using Liv Tyler's celebrity as a promotion (to attract Liv Tyler fans who'd never heard of LOTR, perhaps?) when really she was only in a couple of scenes. That annoys me.

But the Rock is so electrifying!

[Eleruin]

But the Rock is so electrifying!

--Captain Stern

But he's only in one scene, and the other is computer animated! And all the commercials were way overpromoting it: "The Rock is in it! The Rock is in it! Come see this movie cuz The Rock is in it!"

Now is it just me, or are we getting way off subject here??

-Eleruin

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

For those of us fans who actually know some Elvish, if you listen close enough to her speech (or anyone's for that matter), it makes absolutely no sense! It's random syllables! (Sorry, I like to gripe about the petty things )

No.. she pronounced them perfectly. Chances are you didn't know all the words she was saying. I do agree that it's stupid that she should say in every review "I can speak quenya..blah...blah"
because she has been trained by people to say specific words not the entire corpus! But she does pronounce it right. Maybe your used to reading and writing it.

[afro-elf]

A) I think Liv is homely.

B) It lessens Eowyn's stature.

If we are gonna all get PC and all, lets have some Blacks and Asians in the film along with handicapped people. And lets cut out the smoking with pipes. Wouldn't Arwen calling down a flood cause some ecological problems?
Hell, why not start a Orc's are people too movement?

As an black kid growing up in the 70's and 80's I NEVER had any people of color in any fanasty realm to indentify with. ( please don't say Lando. He's a scoundrel. (can't even escape the ghetto stigma in star wars

But you know what? SOOOOOOOOOO. I still loved the LOTR. (BOOK). Even though the Black people were "bad guys". I mean the Haradrim, not just the general term swarthy)

To get technical I have Black, Native American and Irish blood.

I'm the lowest of the low. I just need some Puerto Rican and I'd me lower than whale dung.

The point being is this does not lower my self esteem. What attacted me to the characters was not if they were Black or White or Male or Female. It was they were great characters.
( even though my RPG characters tend to look like me)

If you wanna see a Uber-Fem watch Zena. If I wanna see some Uber-Negroes I can watch.... umm...er. Anyway this modern revisionism is just too much.

Like Gone with the Wind. When the movie first came out the slaves said.... We aint nothin but house nig****

Watch it now and it says house workers.

This the relativistic, post-modern, deconstruction, overly liberal, polictically correct society is getting outta hand.

Wow. I guess I needed to rant.

BTW I like my women like Galadriel, Luthenien and Eowyn.

[jerseydevil]

Afro-Elf:

I agree with you. We want to change history so it conforms to todays standards. Look at what Disneyland and Walt Disney World ended up doing with The Pirates of the Carribean. In 1996 a woman's group got up in arms becuase the pirates were chasing the woman around through the town square. They felt it was demeaning and wanted it removed. The Walt Disney company - instead of arguing that it was how things were - changed it. They put food in the woman's hands - now the pirates are trying to get the food, instead of the woman.

History isn't alway pretty - the holocaust, slavery, feeding christians to the lions - but it happened. We can only learn from the past and prevent that stuff from happening again.

I guess we shouldn't get into a political discussion here. I'm not black, but I think if I was, Black History Month would really upset me. I've always felt that we should celebrate anyone that made a difference in this country. Instead it's relegated to a single month for blacks? When I was in school - we did learn about a lot of famous black people, and it wasn't because they were black - but because they made great discoverys or made major contribution to this country. We were taught that blacks fought SIDE-BY-SIDE with whites during the revolution. The same was true of woman. By the way - New Jersey allowed blacks and woman to vote until the early 1800's when our constitution was changed. Originally it allowed ALL people who owned land to vote.

Should we celebrate people for their accomplishments or if they're not a white male - get relegated to their own day, week, month to be celebrated and then the rest of the year just be forgotten? Hopefully it will come a point where people are celebrated for their accomplishments and not seperated by their color, race or sex.

The sad thing is - I see America becoming more divided, instead of people becoming equal and race and color and sex becoming a non-issue. All you have to do is see all the hyphonations happening. I'm American, NOT European-American (my ancestors came over through Ellis Island). I've never lived in Europe and really don't want to. I've only been called European-American once - but I consider it an insult. My ancestors may have been European, but I was born American and I will die American and I'm proud to be American. Our country may not always be perfect - but no other country has been able to accomplish so much in only 200 years of existence. Also a lot of problems we deal with today - America didn't even cause (slavery) - Europe did. Now we have to clean up the mess they left for us.

[Rána Eressëa]

Interesting. Personally I think it "established" Arwen's character, so people wouldn't be rooting for Aragorn to choose Eowyn when the next movies came along. Then again, them doing it for the reason that they thought it would appeal to feminists in the audience does not go well in my book, though I may be female. I just wish they would leave it be and let it be glorious in its own light. People get too angry over stupid things these days; you've got them rioting over everything there is to possibly riot about. So, eh, I have mixed feelings, but it doesn't make me like the movie any less.

[jerseydevil]

yeah - i don't mind Arwen's role being expanded. I just think it was overdone in the Flight to the Ford. But having her have some more screen time and showing her with Aragorn - I think was important. I just don't like the way she was being used in advertising. I mean - she's basically in the movie for 15 minutes (minor character) - but she gets put on a BK glass??? Now that is obvious catoring to bring in the woman. To me it's a little condscending. She had better not take away from Eowyn either - I liked her. Eowyn was one of my favorite characters.

My mother was a strong person - not because she went into battle, but because she spoke her mind, and was intelligent. She owned a bookstore and when I was growing up she was always in charge of all our school fairs and stuff. Sadly she died when she was 44 - 10 years ago. She was always nice to everyone - and she was one of the few people that I could have an intellectual discussion with. My father didn't read or anything even though he did own a major company. My mother used to read business books and then highlight the stuff she thought he should read. Truly - behind every great man there is a great woman.

[Vardasoroniel]

Originally posted by Eleruin >ahem< Also, on a side note:

--Anduin

For those of us fans who actually know some Elvish, if you listen close enough to her speech (or anyone's for that matter), it makes absolutely no sense! It's random syllables! (Sorry, I like to gripe about the petty things )



So, if you didn't get the picture already, I don't like Arwen.

if you go to this link you can see an examination of the Elvish used in the movie --

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm

[Gerbil]

...and marrying Aragorn when he obviously loved Eowyn.

Eh? Nope. Aragorn never loved Eowyn.
He PITIED her, because he knew her love for him could never be returned (unrequited love anyone? We've all felt that. Oh Britney... *cough*).
More than that, he also saw her 'love' for what it was, desire to be with someone who lived up to her ideals - he was noble, a great warrior, loved by his friends and followers, and destined for great things - a role she wished she could see.

At the end she finally understands this about herself, and her love turns towards someone else - Faramir, who I must admit in many ways is actually a 'lesser' version of Aragorn (in the books - god knows what the film will do .

The other thing she understands at the end is that hers was a desire for battle in and of itself - rather like Boromir, but she then realises that battle is only 'good' for the things it achieves, beliefs which both Aragorn and Faramir have held all their lives.

[Gerbil]

OH

MY

GOD!

I have just seen the funniest thing about LotR. But since it's not to do with Arwen, but Liv Tyler (and some of the rest of the cast) I'll post it in the 'Elijah Wood - a bit of a weirdo' thread

[bropous]

You know, if some folks grouse about this group or that group not being included, all they have to do is seek out entertainment specially crafted for their ethnocentric bent. Tolkien never included any people in LotR which included people who seemed to be French, but I won't whine and gnash my teeth about that [some would find the absence of French people an olfactory blessing!]. Tolkien wrote a story supposedly placed in a mythical version of northwestern Europe, using bits of the Eddas and the Kalevala for flavor, so it's not any real surprise that he has only included [supposedly] Caucasian-type characters.

Also, it's not a real surprise that there were not more "strong" women in the book. In the epics, women are not usually given roles of strength, aside from wisdom and magical abilities in some. Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age was basically a blend of societies with a variety of developments, but none were basically modern. Women did not have many avenues for greatness during the Dark Ages, and even in some places today they don't have all that many open roads to success.

As for Aragorn and Eowyn, I really took it that Aragorn actually did fall in love with Eowyn to a point, but always in the back of his mind was Arwen. It does happen that folks can "fall in love" with two people at once, but the true test of character is when one remains true to a commitment no matter how attractive the alternative appears. I think Tolkien showed some of his basic philosophy on the interactions of men and women, including marriage, which he talks about in his Letters, in the dedication Aragorn shows to Arwen. This even though he could have just as easily gone on a nefarious, libidinous romp through the lower rings of Minas Tirith for weeks after his coronation.....