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05-04-2005, 12:11 PM
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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King Arthur legendaria and Harry Potter
Many folks have an interest in King Arthur. I have been struck at times by the apparent influence of the Arthurian elements in the HP series. Particularly the SWORD IN THE STONE motif, the orphan status motif, the wise owl motif, and the adversity elements.
If interest is adequate, I am sure that other Mooters know much more about this and can expose other items of influence and correlation. Then we can perhaps speculate on the ending of HP in that mode.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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05-06-2005, 01:20 AM
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Slacker
Warrior Admin 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alabama
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That's an interesting theory. Unfortunately, I'm not very learned in Arthurian lore. I would be interested in reading what other 'mooters had to say about it, though.
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"If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31 |
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05-09-2005, 01:57 PM
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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The Arthurian legends do seem to have an influence on HP, probably because they're the best-known source of the archetypes you mentioned - Merlin/Dumbledore etc. I wonder if 'Dumbledore's Army' will become a kind of Round Table at Hogwarts? I hope it doesn't bode ill for Harry, though.
He should name his wand Excalibur 
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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05-09-2005, 03:04 PM
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Co-President of Entmoot
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Join Date: Aug 2002
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References to the legendaria have already been made, to Merlin as a great wizard who seems to have influenced wizarding culture. ("By Merlin's beard!" and the Order of Merlin.)
I never thought of Dumbledore's Army as a sort of Round Table, but it is a good analogy I think. This would make Harry a King Arthur figure, which is also strengthened by the orphan thing. One place where this falls down is Arthur's adopted family and the Dursley's. Vernon would not be Sir Ector, and Dudley would not be Sir Kay. There also is not equivelant to Mordred in Potterverse. As of yet, I also don't see a Guenevere equivelant. (Though there are future possibilities. *romantic sigh*) We can make comparisons to Arthur's knights and Harry's best friends. Who do you see lining up? I can see Ron as Kay or Gawain, and Hermione as Bedwyr/Bedevere. I can also see Neville as Bedwyr, and I could see Hermione as Kay. (Actually, it's very hard to line people up here. Hrm.) Sir Kay is Arthur's adopted brother and one of his best friends, and most loyal knights. He is Arthur's Seneschal - in other words, his right hand man. I think Ron and Harry are like brothers in a similar sense to Kay and Arthur - Harry's real family is dead, and the Weasley's adopted him. The Dursleys, despite Petunia's important WRT the protection spell, simply do not act like a real family. Ron as Gawain, well, this is simply because Gawain is often written as being quick-tempered, and having red hair. Not much to go on, and plus, Arthur is technically Gawain's uncle, even though they're pretty much the same age. (Arthur has a much-older half-sister, as you know.) The reason I think Hermione could also be Kay is because he is very intelligent. He's probably the smartest knight, or at least, he has to draw on his brains the most in his capacity as Seneschal. One of his duties (they aren't always elaborated in the books), is dealing with the logistics of supplying Arthur's armies. From the little I know of logistics, this is mind-bendingly complex and hideous. (Logistics in forestry are less evil, but they certainly gave me an insight. *shudders*) After my geeky analysis, I realize I have left out Lancelot. I often leave him out accidentally because I don't really understand his character, and apparently he was added to the legends later. However, he is a major player later. I can't think of anyone to parallel Lancelot, because I can't think of anyone who would betray Harry. Other betraying knights include Mordred, Agravaine, and Gaheris (I think). Other important loyal knights include Gareth, Bors, Galahad, Pellinore, Percivale, Leodegrance, and some other people who's names escape me. It also depends a lot on what books you read. My post was based on all the ones I've read - attempting to knit together some common themes. We need Valandil in here - he's the Arthurian Legends expert. Very cool thread Inked!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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05-09-2005, 03:09 PM
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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Maybe we don't know enough about anyone except Ron and Hermione to see how they would match up. Also, the battle with Voldemort is very different to the battles Arthur fought, and Draco, Lucius and the Death Eaters don't really fit in either. Although, how about Arthur Weasley rather than Harry as the Arthur figure?
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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05-09-2005, 04:51 PM
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#6 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Old Merlin had sense to hide young king
That right honest and humble he up-bring To manliness, who would be king! SWORD IN STONE? That whole thing! Sword in hat per JK Rowling! Gryffin - d'or, heart of God-King, With rubies eggs, excellent thing!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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05-09-2005, 05:30 PM
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Co-President of Entmoot
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Maybe that makes Godric Griffindor sort of like Uther Pendragon then?  James and Lily lived in Godric's Hollow, so that keeps the continuity going...Interesting Sun-star. I don't think we know enough about Arthur Weasley to see if he's a good Arthur figure.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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05-12-2005, 06:00 PM
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Co-President of Entmoot
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Replying to my own post... lame! But this thread deserves a bump because...
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From here What do you guys make of that? Personally I think it says Harry is at least partly based on the Arthur archetype, at least for Arthur as a boy.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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05-14-2005, 03:08 PM
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An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Well as one who has researched the Arthurian Legend for years and then plotted my Quest of three weeks in the UK, I can say I see vague similarities but to my "purist" heart, there is not a match.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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05-14-2005, 11:59 PM
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#10 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Spock,
This comment from a man who has a Star Trek name and a ninja avatar? I really expected better. For a purist, only the original will do. I agree. So the question is not, "Is this the Arthurian corpus or torso or extremity, per se?" but rather are there linkages of substance? What do you think? (AND don't give us the whiny "It's not pure!", okay?  )
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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05-15-2005, 03:20 AM
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An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Sorry, Purist was meant in that it describes "my personal" feelings, attitudes and such. Those are my own and not "whiny". You might want to use a more correct adjective but I'm not supplying it.
 I probably should not have shared my thoughts on this one.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 05-15-2005 at 03:22 AM. |
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05-15-2005, 08:57 AM
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#12 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Spock,
Live long and prosper! I was jesting about whiny. That's what the little smile face was meant to indicate! Golly those vulcans are touchy for non-emoting folk! 
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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05-15-2005, 09:06 AM
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#13 |
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An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Actually I am very literal in definition. I am pleased you clarified it for my foggy mind.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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05-15-2005, 12:55 PM
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#14 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden
Posts: 9,481
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Not having read the books, are there hints at the Arthurian Legend in HP?
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05-15-2005, 04:15 PM
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#15 |
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Tolkien-aholic
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ...
Posts: 712
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Holy Grail = Goblet of Fire ??????
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What was lost is now found. |
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05-15-2005, 05:39 PM
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#16 | ||
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Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
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IMO J.K. Rowling isn't trying to write an Arthurian legend, she's writing a fantasy book with Arthurian elements, symbols and themes.
(If she said it was an Arthurian legend, I'd be ranting too! )
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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05-16-2005, 04:44 AM
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#17 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden
Posts: 9,481
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OK. Thanks for the info.
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08-03-2007, 09:37 PM
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#18 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Remember this thread, Y'all? I think it time to re-open it! JKR's ending in Deathly Hallows (DH) was incorporative of and extended a number of motifs I've advocated for - not least the Arthurian.
Gotta love that sword in the pool bit and Neville's hat tricks! What do you think?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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