LoTR Discussion Project: Book II Chapter 4: A journey in the dark

[Curubethion]

About the Watcher...I think that it was partly the Balrog, and partly the ring. After all, it chose to grab Frodo, the ringbearer.

[Rían]

Thanks, Eärniel! Good summary -

Originally Posted by Eärniel

...which goes to show that in each of these small grumpy men, there’s a poet waiting to get out.

I like that!

An interesting tidbit: When the Fellowship is considering whether to go on or return to Rivendell, Gandalf says: “ The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master’s hand again.”

To me, they were already plenty scary! That was a good line.

1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth?

Good thought - I bet that definitely had a bit to do with it.

3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is?

I think it was a kind of act of petulance - evil seems to often be petulant. "If they got away from ME, then I'm shutting them up in that place where I know there's some nasty orcs! The NERVE of them throwing a rock in MY waters! I'll show THEM!" I think it's under its own leadership, as the line from Gandalf says, altho I think it would have to bow to Sauron if he showed up.

The mountain was also "petulant" - that last little bit of snow dumped as the fellowship left.

4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination.

I thought that night-vision line was interesting - and somewhat creepy - makes you think "what is he going to be seeing as we get futher along?" I don't remember what I thought the following thing was - prob. an orc. Too long and too many readings ago!

Apart from the fireworks, the fight with the wolves is the first time we get to see Gandalf's "magic" at first hand and in earnest. What were your impressions of this first time you read it?

We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are?

I think I read the Hobbit before LOTR (can't even remember THAT now! Too long ago!) and Gandy seems to have a thing with fire and wolves! The disappearing thing kind of confused me - seemed to be one of the few almost "cheats" of the book. It seemed like evil always worked with real things, or illusions - not illusions that were real, if you know what I mean, and this just didn't seem to fit in. But maybe just the one wolf was real, and the others kind of an illusion off of him - that would fit in better - never thought of that before.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i think most of the levels were fairly similar to one another, though, apart from level 1 of old moria of course