Dante`s Inferno- what level are you in?

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That's quite an assumption. But the point inconsequential, for I'm not arguing that utopia is possible. I was just pointing out that amazing challenges can still face mankind without war.

Conflict doesn't always mean war. When you go shopping, and you look for the lowest price, you are participating in a conflict based system of economics... you are in conflict with the grocer, who wants the highest return on his investment.

To avoid sounding overly sarcastic, I will merely point out that an awful lot of conflict free utopias have real difficulties with their economic systems...

I can see what you're saying, but I disagree that growth can only come from pain. Pain is one source of growth, a special kind of growth that can be very helpful and healthy. There are other ways of growing, however.

I disagree however. Growth involves change. Which means that something is going to be New, which means that it has to be adjusted to. You may not call it pain when it is at a level below a certain threshold, but it is the same stimulus. With repetition, the new situation becomes adapted to, and perhaps even sought after. But at that point, it is no longer growth...

When Newton's apocryphal apple fell on his head, he didn't say, "oh, the pain! I must learn." Rather, it was simple curiosity that drew him on. This is a common way of things. Curiosity is another stimulus for growth that you're forgetting. It's a very important one for young children also. When they build blocks and start artwork, pain is not the impetus for their learning.

Curiousity is a survival mechanism. It functions to allow humans to learn from other people's mistakes and the environment before they have to experience pain or death... Since once of it's primary benefits is to avoid pain and danger, I would point out that I don't consider it an effective contradiction...

Though I do consider it a more elegant and preferable method than mere response...

You can also point out the same thing about the human ability of foresight. It functions in much the same way as curiousity, allowing us to forsee future pain and danger, and thus avoid it...

Though I think you do have a valid point that pain serves a valuable role in people's lives by teaching them. It speeds up learning, I guess one could say.

Nothing solves a problem faster, or I might even venture more elegantly, than a genetic algorythm... though all that culling of the failed solutions is distressing...

I would ask a question though... Why do people "learn"?

not how... but Why... Why do they even have that ability?

[Blackheart]

Not to mention, that if we conquored space... other planets would eventually have nice bland lawns with streets paved of gold also...

[Lief Erikson]

Would a world populated with Mother Teresas and Martin Luther King Juniors be a place of bland faces and immaculate lawns? People in the world who have most successfully rooted evil out of their lives are the most exciting and admirable people on the planet.

Edison and Newton also weren't driven forward in their studies by suffering, it's important to note. They studied for the heck of it. One of my sisters loves machinery and tinkering, and that is not because of pain. I also have a strong intellectual curiosity, and it is not the result of pain.

We learn many important lessons from pain. However, pain is not the source of all learning, and it is a mistake to assume that communities on Earth with little evil are bland, boring places. Let me speak for my own household, a place where in my opinion, there is little evil. It is a fun place to live .

Originally Posted by Blackheart

To avoid sounding overly sarcastic, I will merely point out that an awful lot of conflict free utopias have real difficulties with their economic systems...

Yet these are not populated with Mother Teresas, people who are willing to give of themselves without thought of return. There are people who will work passionately and be willing to share all they own. If everyone was like that, utopia would work fine.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I would ask a question though... Why do people "learn"?

Some, like Edison, Galileo and Newton, and many others, learn for the simple fun of it. Others learn because of necessity, environmental pressure.

[Lotesse]

The world would not be poulated with Martin Luther King Juniors and Mother Teresas, simply because in a perfect world there would be no need for them to be what has made them famous. Utopia has no need for a civil revolution leader, or someone to feed the masses of hungry children, because they do not exist.

[katya]

Also, remember to answer for the individual person too. Does being more pure lead to a happier life?

I`m gonna use a couple examples to illustrate what I`m trying to say.

First, let`s say lust. Do you look at pornography? fantasize about explicit sexual situations? regularly have sex with someone who is not a husband/wife/long term boyfriend/girlfriend? Lustfull feelings are probably there for you to some extent. It`s natural. But I think humans have come to the point where we don`t have to worry too much about keeping the population up. So suppose someone decided to rid themselves of this feeling. Do you think, if sucessful, or even partially so, do you think it would make them happier in spirit or would their biological needs make them unsatisfied?

Or, how about gluttony. I have to say, I am known for being a big lover of (a) meat and (b) chocolate. (And pizza, but that`s a whole `nother story.) Obviously there`s nothing wrong with eating to stay alive. And enjoying that food. But what about when you eat dessert after every meal like I tend to, or you eat a lot even when you`re not hungry? Do you think it`s possible to become more spiritually happy by eating nuts and fruit and tofu and stuff (my idea of healthy food, somehow, lol)? Maybe in this case it`s not even to say that eating too much is a sin, but is it like more pure to eat more in moderation and healthily?

It`s hard classifying things into sinful or pure because it`s easy to be subjective. So I guess that`s why let`s use Dante as a guide. That`s what inspired me anyway.

*eats Milky Ways. "May contain peanuts", hahaha*

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Pytt

I got into 6. level of hell, where the heretics goes.

I too am burning in the "Extreme" 6th level. Ahh to be a heretic.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Would a world populated with Mother Teresas and Martin Luther King Juniors be a place of bland faces and immaculate lawns? People in the world who have most successfully rooted evil out of their lives are the most exciting and admirable people on the planet.

The key word is "Their" lives. But the reason we even know about them is the fact that there are conflicts for them to struggle with. As pointed out, if there were no conflicts, they would indeed be bland faces...

Edison and Newton also weren't driven forward in their studies by suffering, it's important to note. They studied for the heck of it. One of my sisters loves machinery and tinkering, and that is not because of pain. I also have a strong intellectual curiosity, and it is not the result of pain.

No, but it is directly linked to your genetic ancestor's pain, or rather, not your genetic ancestors, but the ones who weren't quite curious enough to look for all the available options and resources.... the ones who failed to make it.

We learn many important lessons from pain. However, pain is not the source of all learning, and it is a mistake to assume that communities on Earth with little evil are bland, boring places. Let me speak for my own household, a place where in my opinion, there is little evil. It is a fun place to live .

I'm sure it is, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The world outside is full of conflict, which makes such islands that much MORE attractive. After all, if the entire world were free of evil, then why not live on the street? It would be much the same wouldn't it?

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by katya

It`s hard classifying things into sinful or pure because it`s easy to be subjective. So I guess that`s why let`s use Dante as a guide. That`s what inspired me anyway.

"An it harm no one, do what though wilt". Is it going to cause the person, or another person, spiritual or physical harm to indulge themselves?

If yes, then perhaps you shouldn't do it.

But if not doing it is going to cause you, or someone else, physical or spiritual harm, then you shouldn't "not" do it.

Balance and moderation really are key principles, and it's one of the reasons why such things ARE subjective. Absolute moral standards always wind up harming someone...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Is it going to cause the person, or another person, spiritual or physical harm to indulge themselves?

If yes, then perhaps you shouldn't do it.

But if not doing it is going to cause you, or someone else, physical or spiritual harm, then you shouldn't "not" do it.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Balance and moderation really are key principles, and it's one of the reasons why such things ARE subjective. Absolute moral standards always wind up harming someone...

Who did Martin Luther King Jr. harm? White racists? Is that not a worthwhile kind of harming?

Originally Posted by Lotesse

The world would not be poulated with Martin Luther King Juniors and Mother Teresas, simply because in a perfect world there would be no need for them to be what has made them famous. Utopia has no need for a civil revolution leader, or someone to feed the masses of hungry children, because they do not exist.

The fact that they wouldn't be famous wouldn't mean they would not exist. And there still would be a very large amount of giving of oneself to others that could be done in such a Utopia, even if there aren't abused, sick or starving people in the world.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

the reason we even know about them is the fact that there are conflicts for them to struggle with.

Who cares if we know about them or not? What matters is that they exist. The fact that we don't know about them doesn't make them bland.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

No, but it is directly linked to your genetic ancestor's pain, or rather, not your genetic ancestors, but the ones who weren't quite curious enough to look for all the available options and resources.... the ones who failed to make it.

Whether that is the original source of curiosity or not, curiosity wouldn't end with the end of suffering. I expect you may well be right that it has been genetically hardwired into our species. If this is so, it's not going anywhere any time soon.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I'm sure it is, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The world outside is full of conflict, which makes such islands that much MORE attractive. After all, if the entire world were free of evil, then why not live on the street? It would be much the same wouldn't it?

You know, a tricky aspect of this discussion is that in my view, evil is related to death. With the end of evil comes the end of death, and everyone who is done with evil is done with death. That comes from scripture I know, and is part of my Christian beliefs. Therefore people of this Utopia will never die, and they will have experienced already the pain of this world. Thus everyone who experiences that world would be able to appreciate it fully.

A tough part of the discussion though, this. I hate to argue with you on this subject, because I agree with SO MUCH of what you're saying, and you're helping me to see even more clearly why (IMO) God would have designed such a thing as pain into the world.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by katya

Also, remember to answer for the individual person too. Does being more pure lead to a happier life?

In answer to your couple examples, I'll just quickly remark that one can enjoy sex without being promiscuous, and can enjoy food without being gluttonous. Furthermore, there are lots of people who have abandoned gluttony and promiscuousity for Christ, and have testified that they have led very happy, fulfilled lives since then, and more than before.

Originally Posted by katya

It`s hard classifying things into sinful or pure because it`s easy to be subjective. So I guess that`s why let`s use Dante as a guide.

And that's why I use the Bible as a guide . And all the moral claims in it make a great deal of sense, IMO.

[Lotesse]

“Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are.”

~ Bertolt Brecht

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Who did Martin Luther King Jr. harm? White racists? Is that not a worthwhile kind of harming?

Harmed who? No one? How is it harming someone to force them to confront their behavior? It might be PAINFUL.. oo look we're back where we started..

There WERE other extremist groups however who did harm people, and plotted worse. Should they have done those things that actually HARMED people? Even in a good cause? I would say no...

Nor do I think that MLK had an absolute moral standard. If one followed the absolute moral standard outlined in Leviticus, slavery is legal and permissable. Obviously he had other beliefs, meaning that he was in fact using a different definition of morality than the "written word of god".

Who cares if we know about them or not? What matters is that they exist. The fact that we don't know about them doesn't make them bland.

What about growing up in a world without conflict? Sure sounds like it would be conducive to blandness...

Whether that is the original source of curiosity or not, curiosity wouldn't end with the end of suffering. I expect you may well be right that it has been genetically hardwired into our species. If this is so, it's not going anywhere any time soon.

But that's sort of the point... In a perfect utopia, we're not talking about a couple of centuries... we're talking about millenia of stable, conflict free society. Curiousity might even CAUSE conflict... it would eventually be eradicated.

You know, a tricky aspect of this discussion is that in my view, evil is related to death. With the end of evil comes the end of death, and everyone who is done with evil is done with death. That comes from scripture I know, and is part of my Christian beliefs. Therefore people of this Utopia will never die, and they will have experienced already the pain of this world. Thus everyone who experiences that world would be able to appreciate it fully.

There are worse things than dying. I won't bother to argue about a metaphyscal realm, but in a worldy realm yes, there are indeed worse things than dying. Does that make them more or less evil?

I will however point out though that such a metaphysical realm is also predicated on the ETERNAL suffering of millions of people who were not "chosen". I certainly wouldn't want to be put in that postion. I have too highly a devoloped sense of guilt. I wouldn't be able to enjoy a minute of paradise.

A tough part of the discussion though, this. I hate to argue with you on this subject, because I agree with SO MUCH of what you're saying, and you're helping me to see even more clearly why (IMO) God would have designed such a thing as pain into the world.

Take it one step further then. If pain is there for a reason, then, following your logic, evil would be there for a reason also. Now of course we can argue all day about what that reason is, but the crux of the argument is the neccesity of evil.

You can take it several ways, the limited viewpoint... It isn't evil we just don't understand it...

The "evil is an illusion" gambit...If it's neccesary, then how can it be evil?

Or any other number of rationalizations.

My personal opinion is that we live in an imperfect world, because if it were any other way we wouldn't be human. People who ascend to some metaphysical realm of perfection really aren't going to be human anymore.

Why would they need curiosity? Leaning? What would they possibly need or want? They probably WOULD sit around all day singing praise to the Lord....

Not MY idea of heaven or a reward... I LIKE humanity, flaws and all... But then I'm sort of a humanist at heart...

If there was ever a utopia, a perfect realm, it would HAVE to include some section, some slice or smidgen of conflict. Otherwise it wouldn't be a utopia for humans at all...

[Lotesse]

Blackheart, you, Sir, are the bomb SO very glad to have you here at Entmoot! SO glad! I love, love love reading your posts.


The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.

Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

~ John Milton, Paradise Lost

[Curubethion]

Huge philosophical posts by Lief Erickson!
RUN FOR THE ENTMOOT HILLS!!!

[Lief Erikson]

I'll respond to Blackheart the rest of the way eventually. Right now is not a good time for me, but I fully intend to get to it.

[Lotesse]

He's intimidating, yes? I see you've met your match, dear Lief! He's a formidable arguing force around here; I am ecstatic that he's joined the Entmoot club and eagerly look forward to each & every one of his posts.

[Lotesse]

Oh - Lief, BTW, have you taken the Dante's Inferno test yet, and posted your results? If you have, I must've missed that post somewhere, & you could perhaps show us? and if you haven't, well, could you?

[Lotesse]

Never mind, Monsieur Erikson, I found it - you're 8th level. My bad; I couldn't find your post until I looked back last page, where you called Inked on his pompous-sounding "the least I'd get would be purgatory - I'm a christian" remark. I forgot to tell you, I thought that was so cool when you responded "Then what does that make me;" NICE!! That was cool, Lief.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

He's intimidating, yes?

Sorry to disappoint- I'm far from admitting defeat!

Originally Posted by Lotesse

He's a formidable arguing force around here; I am ecstatic that he's joined the Entmoot club and eagerly look forward to each & every one of his posts.

Actually, I haven't even read his post yet . But I know it'll be good and worth spending time on, as you point out, so I wait until I have time. At the moment, it's 11:30 at night and my bed time, so now isn't a good time, and earlier wasn't a good time because I had to leave for a UCI conference at that moment. Tomorrow I'm celebrating my mother's birthday party with my family. I might be able to squeeze in a response tomorrow, though.

I'll just respond to the first part tonight. (Writes for a while)

Never mind. I'm hooked now; I'll respond to it all tonight.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Harmed who? No one? How is it harming someone to force them to confront their behavior? It might be PAINFUL.. oo look we're back where we started..

There WERE other extremist groups however who did harm people, and plotted worse. Should they have done those things that actually HARMED people? Even in a good cause? I would say no...

Martin Luther King Jr. wanted the whites no longer to have the best seats on buses and cafeterias all the time. No longer to have first dibs on housing et al. This is a direct economical kind of harm to their situation that he brought about. It was in good cause though. Causing harm to others thus sometimes should be done when it is in a good cause. Stopping Hitler from conquering the world would be another case where causing direct harm to people is in good cause and justified.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Nor do I think that MLK had an absolute moral standard. If one followed the absolute moral standard outlined in Leviticus, slavery is legal and permissable. Obviously he had other beliefs, meaning that he was in fact using a different definition of morality than the "written word of god".

MLK was a Christian, not a Jew. He did adhere to the best of his ability though to the written word of God. He did have absolute values. I can argue this from his "Letter from the Birmingham Jail," where he used the Bible as evidence to back his claims. If he was a relativist, he would have understood that the Bible can be interpreted anyway anyone wants, and he wouldn't have tried to convince his argument using it. However, he used the Bible in an argumentative way, taking it as a postulate that it was literally true (I can prove this from textual passages) and arguing from there against the white moderates.

I recently addressed the point of the Christians not obeying all the written forms of the law in a post in the "Religious Knowledge" thread in General Messages. We can continue that line of debate there, if you like .

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Quote:
Who cares if we know about them or not? What matters is that they exist. The fact that we don't know about them doesn't make them bland.


What about growing up in a world without conflict? Sure sounds like it would be conducive to blandness...

You're changing the subject, evading my point. Oh well .

As I said before, I believe evil is linked with death, and that when evil ceases to exist, death will cease to exist. Thus everyone in the world will have already experienced and learned the lessons pain has to teach (or that God wanted them to learn through pain). Then there will be new things to learn. There are many possible achievements and fields of study, many challenges for humanity without conflict with one another. I don't think conflict between one another or against nature is necessary. It teaches important lessons, but once those lessons are learned, conflict's purpose is done and there is no more need for it. People live together in beautiful harmony sometimes without much conflict. My parents, for example, work together wonderfully and a conflict between them is an extremely rare occurrence.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

But that's sort of the point... In a perfect utopia, we're not talking about a couple of centuries... we're talking about millenia of stable, conflict free society. Curiousity might even CAUSE conflict... it would eventually be eradicated.

Forgetting my eternal life, eternal curiosity religious views, I'll turn back to the perspective that says we have a finite lifetime in utopia and curiosity will end up being culled out of our genes (though this is uncertain; homosexuality somehow manages to stay, if you are one of those who thinks it's related to genes, while being a constant detriment in our gene pool).

Do you honestly think that the violence inherent in humanity could possibly continue for millenia with our species continually gouging itself but never killing itself off completely? Millenia of peace and joy for all, falling into final blandness, is far better than a few centuries left of human hell, IMO. Blandness may be a disappointing and dismal ending, but at least we'd still be happy . If violence and evil remain though, we will experience far less happiness, great misery, and swift extinction. So there's a choice as to which end is preferrable.

For myself, the answer to this seems obvious.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I will however point out though that such a metaphysical realm is also predicated on the ETERNAL suffering of millions of people who were not "chosen".

First of all, there is only one verse in the Bible that says eternal torture. That verse is in the Book of Revelation, a vision, and visions frequently have symbolic meaning rather than literal.

There are numerous passages that say there is eternal fire and there is a place that mentions eternal destruction. Jesus said that body and soul will be destroyed in hell, but he didn't say they'd be eternally tortured in hell. That the fire should be eternal is logical, for it is justice. That the people burning in the fire should be forever doesn't necessarily follow.

Furthermore, Jesus did say very clearly in the New Testament that people would be punished in different amounts on Judgment Day, in proportion to their crimes. For some the judgment would be heavy and for some lighter. So there is clearly justice at work here, and the claim that there is eternal torture espoused in the Bible is tenuous.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

I think that was Satan talking, in Paradise Lost .

Originally Posted by Blackheart

My personal opinion is that we live in an imperfect world, because if it were any other way we wouldn't be human. People who ascend to some metaphysical realm of perfection really aren't going to be human anymore.

You say that because this is the humanity you experience day to day. You haven't witnessed perfection in people. In my view, humanity lost some of what made it human when it sinned. It embraced slavery, lost the freedom to make all of its decisions. It had no choice but to do evil, but freedom was part of God's plan for our race. We haven't the freedom to avoid doing evil, but are enslaved to evil unless set free. That loss of freedom is a loss to our nature as humans.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I will however point out though that such a metaphysical realm is also predicated on the ETERNAL suffering of millions of people who were not "chosen". I certainly wouldn't want to be put in that postion. I have too highly a devoloped sense of guilt. I wouldn't be able to enjoy a minute of paradise.

I can appreciate that perspective too. My Dad, a devout Christian, feels the same way.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Take it one step further then. If pain is there for a reason, then, following your logic, evil would be there for a reason also. Now of course we can argue all day about what that reason is, but the crux of the argument is the neccesity of evil.

I already have taken and argued that step on other threads. I believe evil is necessary for the learning of certain lessons, but beyond a point, it becomes unnecessary. A child who burns his hand once doesn't need to learn the lesson not to put his finger on the candle again. When God's use for evil and pain is over, they become unnecessary. Then they will be eradicated and God can teach us what he wants us to learn next.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Why would they need curiosity? Learning? What would they possibly need or want? They probably WOULD sit around all day singing praise to the Lord....

There would be a lot for people to want (When will that ever not be?) and a lot for them to work for, and a lot to bring them pleasure.

Curiosity would indeed be very useful for learning. That's its primary function in the world today. No big change there.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Not MY idea of heaven or a reward... I LIKE humanity, flaws and all... But then I'm sort of a humanist at heart...

I like humanity too . But I don't like its flaws. When I hear people make snide remarks about others behind their backs, I strongly dislike those comments because they are bad. When I hear one of my brothers putting down my other brother, I strongly dislike that too because it is bad that is being done. I strongly dislike it when men mistreat women. The other way around too, of course, but I was thinking sexually because of that horrible recent Golden Globe incident. I don't like Saddam's sons' senses of humor. We would be better off without evil. Small and big evil, if we could be rid of all of it while maintaining all the good and replacing the evil and lower good with greater and greater good, we'd live in a far more pleasing environment. Our world could be a lot better and more enjoyable a place than it is.

[Lief Erikson]

You really got me on a roll there with that post, Lotesse, suggesting I was done for! The challenge stirred in me something fierce and I came back kicking!

Blackheart is fun to talk with indeed . As are you .