Dante`s Inferno- what level are you in?

[Blackheart]

Second Level of Hell

You have come to a place mute of all light, where the wind bellows as the sea does in a tempest. This is the realm where the lustful spend eternity. Here, sinners are blown around endlessly by the unforgiving winds of unquenchable desire as punishment for their transgressions. The infernal hurricane that never rests hurtles the spirits onward in its rapine, whirling them round, and smiting, it molests them. You have betrayed reason at the behest of your appetite for pleasure, and so here you are doomed to remain. Cleopatra and Helen of Troy are two that share in your fate.

Level 2 Lustful Extreme

Was there actually any doubt about this outcome?

Though I disagree with "You have betrayed reason at the behest of your appetite for pleasure" since reason would lead us to believe that there is no place called hell and therefore there is no spiritual reason not to engage in pleasurable acts.

[Blackheart]

And once again... the delay caused by this interminable cable under the sea has caused me to double post...

I really should look at getting some kind of faster carrier pigeon analogue..

[inked]

Yeah, yeah, Lotesse. It's literature. That's why people comment on it and even learn from it. That's why there's ENTMOOT ... because of Tolkien!

By the way, Charles Williams was an Inkling and therefore acquainted with JRRT. They had CS Lewis as a friend of both of them, but they did not get along. Even though they shared some interest in Dante. Tolkien was a member of the Dante group (see Letters, but I don't recall which).

Lighten up, Lotesse, or you may end up in the Stygian marsh. (See, there's that literature thing again!) Or, possibly, you could do a piece on the similarities between JRRT's marsh into which Frodo fell and was rescued and Dante's from which no one was rescued.

I would prefer, of course, that it not be from the personal angle, but that's your choice!

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Yeah yeah yeah, Inked. Whatever you say! By the WAY, did you take the fun little quiz that goes with this thread? What level are you in - and you have to answer the questions honestly, Inked. No pretending to be Mr. Perfect.

It is LITERATURE, Inked, not reality. FICTION. Just like religion. All religious mythology is just that, myths, not real. So YES, it sounds like fun! Bring it on! It'll be great!

No way I'll get less than purgatory, Lotesse. I'm a Christian. And, I'm from South Carolina originally, so I'm bound to end as I began in Paradise.

And I resent that you think I pretend to be perfect, Lotesse. I modestly and humbly admit that I am not (yet) perfect. But I shall be! Remember the bumpersticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven!

(Let's see that's extra time for Pride in origins on the cornice of Mount purgatory. Less time for faith in the Redeemer. Extra points for being nice to Lotesse. Hey, I'm making progress up the mountain! )

[katya]

Hm, but have you actually tried the test yet? Don`t just talk about it before you take it silly.

And everyone please try and get along. Or this thread might end up in the level for the violent and malicious or something.

[Lotesse]

Thank you, Katya! You ARE the bomb.

You know, that second level looks really fun. I would so love to kick it with Helen of Troy and Cleopatra.

[inked]

But we are getting along, Katya! Self-deprecatory humour has a difficult reception. Rather like those who don't see Dante's poking fun at himself in his self-characterizations. Sheeeesh!

[katya]

Heehee. The way you keep not telling your results is more than a little suspicious, me thinks. Come on, after all this we wanna know!

And no one really answered my second question, which was the real question I guess I was trying to ask in the first place. About whether anyone thinks it`s worth it to skip the "moderation" and try and avoid sin completely. Like maybe even though it`s hard it`s worth it. I`m not saying either way but I wanna know what you all think.

[Lotesse]

I know; it's hilarious! Inked pretends that he cannot take the personality quizzes and these kinds of quizzes that reveal a bit about who the quiztaker is; he says his computer at his office somehow prohibits him from taking the online quizzes. Can I hear a "YEAH, RIGHT!"

To answer your second question Katya, on whether it is worth it to skip the "moderation" and try and avoid sin completely - absolutely NOT! Are you kidding me? Life is to be enjoyed, within reason and not at the expense of fellow human beings. On the contrary, we all ought to enjoy life comfortably. Moderation is useful to prevent harm from coming to oneself or one's fellows as a result of extensive fun, so in that respect, I say yes, moderate to a certain extent. But the concept of sin and sinning belongs to the religious folk; they can keep their angst and worry about sin. Definitely not my bag.

[inked]

Well, second question first then! (I still cannot access the quiz from work and haven't had my home computer repaired.)

There are lots of traditions of attempting to avoid sin completely. The Christian, of course, comes immediately to mind in the West, but also Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam, and animism, et alia ad infinitum ad hominem.

How exactly one avoids sin or bad karma or angering the daemons is particular to each tradition and sub-traditions.

Perhaps the most famous representation in the Western world that doesn't use the word sin is St. Augustine's dictum: "Love God and do as you please."
That's pretty simple and profound. If you love God properly, above all else, then you would want to enter into His life and would order all your doings, thoughts, and spirit to maximize your experience of Him; therefore, you could do as you please because you would wish to please God.

The difficulty I have in doing that is the difficulty of separating what I want from what it means to love God. I want my own way; my way or the highway; I did it my way! That means that when I attempt to order my life around God, I end up ordering it around myself. What I have discovered in 50-plus years of attempting that process is that God gets short-changed.

Oh, I can get along reasonably well for short periods of time on my own steam, but I have never found - when I have been truly honest with myself - that it lasts. Somehow, God gets confused about how I want the world to run and I have to strike out on my own. I even read the owner's manual and still get the functions wrong, strip the gears, and bust the belts and burn out the computer chips.

Sin, by the way, is not merely being bad or evil. It is missing the target - as in not hitting the bulls' eye everytime I am charged by sin. I end up getting gored when the aim is off by any amount. Then there's a rampaging bull loose in the china shops of everyone else. Sin can also be not clean, not pure, not set apart. And I find that there's much of me that wants my way and contaminates my best efforts. And sometimes I do desire to do various pleasures in the wrong way - take them at improper times or to improper degrees or from improper sources. Then, I just go along with myself pretending that God will go along to get along, too. Then another person is injured by my behaviour and I have offended against God and human!

Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this condition? I find that I know the good, but that I do the wrong I do not wish in my inmost being because there is in my body/mind/spirit-complex-that-is-I (soul, if you will) a principle of disobedience that I cannot control! It overwhelms my every effort ultimately and I am powerless to conquer it.

When I hear what Confucious said about morals and behaviours, and the Buddha, and Baha'ullah, and Jesus, I recognize the truth but I find myself powerless to accomplish it daily, weekly, monthly, annually, or until my death.
I realize that I need an outside agency to accomplish for me what I cannot do for myself. I need help, and more than help, I need a person to go my bond, redeem me, and release me, AND empower me to do what St. Augustine says.

There is, blessedly, just such an One. That's the Incarnate Son of God who did pay my debt, set me free, went my bail, washed away my stains and impurities, and empowered me to live so that I can more love God and thus do as I please.

NOT that I have achieved that goal yet hourly or daily or weekly or monthly or annually! But I press on toward that end, that I may be so conformed to the Incarnancy that some day - in this world or the next - I may LOVE GOD and DO AS I PLEASE. That will be winning the spiritual Olympics, and I will get the crown, not just a medal. The highest accolade in the Natural and Supernatural worlds is the chief end for which we are created: "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in little. You shall be ruler over much." That much I take to mean over my entire being - when I can in deed and in reality love God and do as I please.

So, I would say that striving for sinlessness is a very valuable experience. It taught me much that I otherwise would never have admitted.

(apologies to St Paul for major paraphrases!)

PS Lotesse, Why lie about the computer? It's so minor a point I would not consider lying about it. Now, if lying would get me the 365 million lottery payoff all for myself, I might be tempted. But not for this!

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by katya

Heehee. And no one really answered my second question, which was the real question I guess I was trying to ask in the first place. About whether anyone thinks it`s worth it to skip the "moderation" and try and avoid sin completely. Like maybe even though it`s hard it`s worth it. I`m not saying either way but I wanna know what you all think.

Define "Sin" first... How can you say whether or not something is good or bad or worth avoiding or seeking out if we don't have a working definition... For instance are you referring to the idea of christian sin, or sin related to jewish traditions, or just plain 'ol Sin in a more general vein...

Is it always a bad thing, for example?

[The last sane person]

In accordance to christianity, I'd be sent to:

First Level of Hell - Limbo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charon ushers you across the river Acheron, and you find yourself upon the brink of grief's abysmal valley. You are in Limbo, a place of sorrow without torment. You encounter a seven-walled castle, and within those walls you find rolling fresh meadows illuminated by the light of reason, whereabout many shades dwell. These are the virtuous pagans, the great philosophers and authors, unbaptised children, and others unfit to enter the kingdom of heaven. You share company with Caesar, Homer, Virgil, Socrates, and Aristotle. There is no punishment here, and the atmosphere is peaceful, yet sad.

[katya]

Yeah, sorry I didn`t explain better. I will when I get home today. I`m in no shape to do it just now. ^^;

[Lief Erikson]

Life can be enjoyed without sin. In fact, I think it is enjoyed more without sin.

Imagine a world without corruption, where no one cheated to get ahead, where no one damaged their bodies through horrible self-destructive practices, where no one deceived one another selfishly, where no one attacked anyone else. A place with no laws except traffic lights . With no locks on doors. With no fear for children. Imagine all the billions that could be taken away from military spending, and what else that money could be spent on! Imagine a world with no hatred or anger. With no murder. With complete cooperation and friendship. Sharing would be everywhere without selfishness and the world's resources would be distributed to all the hungry. There would be no hungry person left in the world. Sickness would take an astounding decrease with all those new billions of dollars available for medical aid. It would be a world without fear. Harmony, peace and love would dominate life. Happiness would be far greater in a world without evil, I think.

And even in a life without evil, happiness is greater. People who do evil often find discontent, and the wrongdoing usually leads to unsatisfied life. On the other hand, doing good can be very fulfilling to people.

Places where evil is removed and goodness magnified are the best places of the world. The less evil there is in this world the better, I say. Therefore I say no evil, no evil in moderation, not in the smallest amount. There should be no truce, no peace with evil. Constant war must be waged against evil, so that we can do our share in bringing the beauty to existence. I don't believe that the beautiful vision of a pure world will ever be fulfilled here on this Earth, but that doesn't mean we should bypass doing our share in working toward that ideal.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by inked

No way I'll get less than purgatory, Lotesse. I'm a Christian.

Then what does that make me? I'm in the 8th level . Though of course, I was rather trying for a lower place .

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Imagine a world without corruption, where no one cheated to get ahead, where no one damaged their bodies through horrible self-destructive practices, where no one deceived one another selfishly, where no one attacked anyone else.

A world without humanity...

There should be no truce, no peace with evil. Constant war must be waged against evil, so that we can do our share in bringing the beauty to existence.

I realize that this is an "ideal" utopia we're talking about, so I won't point out the futility of it, but have you ever considered the sheer boredom of a world without conflict, differences, and challenges?

Eventually in this utopia, all the poor people will have been helped. All the "evil" will have been banished. Everyone will stand on their bland lawns and smile blandly at the bland people walking by to look at other people's bland lawns. Wouldn't matter if they were PERFECT lawns and the sidewalks paved with gold, it will be bland because it will be the same...

And it will all be the same, because you've equated perfection with eliminating one pole of the axis... instead of with something like say.... Balance and Harmony.

[Hasty Ent]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

No. I don't see the need in living a pure, virtuous life. I like sex, and I don't see the point in bein' a shrinking violet about it.

As others have already stated, I don't see them as being mutually exclusive. You can enjoy sex and live a pure and virtuous life in my world. Of course, I probably define "pure" and "virtuous" differently than some people might.

Oh, btw, BoP? Scoot over a bit.... I'm in Level 7, the same as you. Oh, I see Lotesse is here, too. *waves*

A few of the questions seemed ambiguous, for instance using a term like "often" -- what people consider "often" varies wildly in my experience. Instead of "often" I would have written a specific quantity -- daily, weekly, monthly, et al. Still, a fun test. Although I'm a little disappointed I didn't make it to Level 9.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

A world without humanity...

This world, anyway . I agree that this world will never be like that.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I realize that this is an "ideal" utopia we're talking about, so I won't point out the futility of it, but have you ever considered the sheer boredom of a world without conflict, differences, and challenges?

There would still be differences and challenges. The Space Race would be a neat example of one of those challenges.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Eventually in this utopia, all the poor people will have been helped. All the "evil" will have been banished. Everyone will stand on their bland lawns and smile blandly at the bland people walking by to look at other people's bland lawns. Wouldn't matter if they were PERFECT lawns and the sidewalks paved with gold, it will be bland because it will be the same...

That sounds horrible. Not at all what I had in mind.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

And it will all be the same, because you've equated perfection with eliminating one pole of the axis... instead of with something like say.... Balance and Harmony.

Do you think our world is better off because we had Hitler?

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There would still be differences and challenges. The Space Race would be a neat example of one of those challenges.

At which point we will eventually bump into another intelligent species... starting the entire process of conflict over again..

Do you think our world is better off because we had Hitler?

That depends on what you mean by better... Anyone can play the suppose game. Suppose Stalin had been completely unopposed... how many do you think the Red Purges would have gotten then?

In order for that to be a logical question, you would have to propose some kind of alternate... but if you really want to press the issue, I would rather have had humanity go through that conflict, and learn some of the things they learned, than sit around staring at my neighbor's immaculately tended, bland lawn...

Without conflict, there is no pain. Without pain there is no growth. The alternative is stagnation and death.

The source of conflict is however, what we often refer to as "evil"...

That's not to say that you can't have TOO MUCH of a bad thing... as someone pointed out, moderation is a "virtue".

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

At which point we will eventually bump into another intelligent species... starting the entire process of conflict over again..

That's quite an assumption. But the point inconsequential, for I'm not arguing that utopia is possible. I was just pointing out that amazing challenges can still face mankind without war.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

In order for that to be a logical question, you would have to propose some kind of alternate... but if you really want to press the issue, I would rather have had humanity go through that conflict, and learn some of the things they learned, than sit around staring at my neighbor's immaculately tended, bland lawn...

Without conflict, there is no pain. Without pain there is no growth. The alternative is stagnation and death.

The source of conflict is however, what we often refer to as "evil"...

That's not to say that you can't have TOO MUCH of a bad thing... as someone pointed out, moderation is a "virtue".

I can see what you're saying, but I disagree that growth can only come from pain. Pain is one source of growth, a special kind of growth that can be very helpful and healthy. There are other ways of growing, however. When Newton's apocryphal apple fell on his head, he didn't say, "oh, the pain! I must learn." Rather, it was simple curiosity that drew him on. This is a common way of things. Curiosity is another stimulus for growth that you're forgetting. It's a very important one for young children also. When they build blocks and start artwork, pain is not the impetus for their learning.

Though I think you do have a valid point that pain serves a valuable role in people's lives by teaching them. It speeds up learning, I guess one could say.