Paradise Lost

[Rían]

How interesting, Beren - I was just thinking of bumping this thread!

Great minds think alike

However, my great mind is very tired now after a long, hot day having a garage sale (have you heard that term?) and then family over for dinner, etc., so I'll join in early next week.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Because knowledge is freedom. Knowledge may be dangerous, safe, "right", "wrong", whatever - but most important of all, it is freedom. Maybe freedom is dangerous to some people, maybe not; but give me knowledge and the freedom it grants ANY DAY over the constraints or "safety" of imposed ignorance.

Knowledge is not necessarily freedom and ignorance not necessarily constraining. Take this example:
A certain med. school student is a light drinker; he enjoys the odd drink every once in a while. After graduating from shcool and starting his practice, he sees several cases of cyrrhosis (sp.?) everyday. What's the effect of this "knowledge"? He stops drinking completely, even though his drinking habits are highly unlikely to lead to cyrrhosis. So I would say that his initial state of "ignorance" was freedom while his newfound "knowledge" constrained him. After all, "ingorance is bliss"

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Great minds think alike

Indeed

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

However, my great mind is very tired now after a long, hot day having a garage sale (have you heard that term?) and then family over for dinner, etc., so I'll join in early next week.

Yes I know about garage sales (I have never had one, though). You're welcome to join in anytime...

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

What's the effect of this "knowledge"? He stops drinking completely, even though his drinking habits are highly unlikely to lead to cyrrhosis. So I would say that his initial state of "ignorance" was freedom while his newfound "knowledge" constrained him.

I would say his previous ignorance constrained him, because he was not equipped with knowledge to use to make more informed decisions about what he may want to do. The knowledge freed him to make an informed decision about whether or not to drink, or whatever. Without that knowledge, he'd have been unwittingly limited in his ability to make for himself his own decisions. The more you can know, the less you can fear. O.K., knowledge is freedom AND power. Boy, I'm waxing too eloquent for this time of night; I'm ill prepared for philosophical-theological discussions at this particular moment, must...go to...bed...

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Boy, I'm waxing too eloquent for this time of night; I'm ill prepared for philosophical-theological discussions at this particular moment, must...go to...bed...

Hehehe, I better not answer now, then. Good night for the moment!

EDIT: Ok, maybe this reply is a bit late, but here it is anyway:

Originally Posted by Lotesse

The more you can know, the less you can fear.

IMO, knowledge only rids you of the fear of the unknown, but it can bring in other fears as in my example.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

The knowledge freed him to make an informed decision about whether or not to drink, or whatever.

But when the decision he's made is irrational and clearly ill-founded, wouldn't you say that this knowledge has (not to say hurt) inconvenienced him in some way?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

It is true that when man sought for more knowledge God punished him ...

I totally disagree with this!

TOTALLY!

(sorry, my inner Valley-girl just came out! )

There's several things going on behind this mind-set that IMO are not supported by Scripture, or even logic in some cases.

(and now I have to stop - one of the kids just had a spill I need to fix right away! *sigh* )

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I totally disagree with this!

TOTALLY!

There's several things going on behind this mind-set that IMO are not supported by Scripture, or even logic in some cases.

YES!! I see a heated discussion on the horizon (if you'll elaborate on this, that is)

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

YES!! I see a heated discussion on the horizon (if you'll elaborate on this, that is)

*heehee*
*rolls up her sleeves*

OK - I think I have a few minutes now - only 1 kid home at the moment (can't wait for school to start up again! )


SO - what this reminds me of are people who are willing to consider the possibility of the existence of God, but who just write off the miracles described in the New Testament without even considering the evidence for/against them. I wonder how they are willing to consider the existence of a God that can create the universe, but balk at considering if that same God can cure leprosy or not.

(and the phone just rung - my oldest son's football practice is over and he needs me to pick him up! I'll put out one thought, then I'll have to come back to this...)

SO - what I would like to ask you to consider is this: where else in the Bible, if anywhere, have you seen God attempt to limit mankind's accumulation of knowledge? and if you can come up with some references, what are the circumstances? Also, what do you see as God's general mindset towards knowledge? And lastly (for now), if God really wanted to limit mankind's knowledge, are there easier ways He could have taken besides setting up a tree and then telling them not to eat its fruit? If there are easier ways, why do you think He didn't take these ways?

IOW, do you think perhaps there's something deeper going on than God just thinking, "Oh my God (oh wait, that's ME!) - they might gain some knowledge! I gotta punish them if they try to get some knowledge!" thing going on?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(can't wait for school to start up again! )

Oh God! I feel sorry for your children!!

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

what this reminds me of are people who are willing to consider the possibility of the existence of God, but who just write off the miracles described in the New Testament without even considering the evidence for/against them.

Sorry, I fail to see the similarity

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

where else in the Bible, if anywhere, have you seen God attempt to limit mankind's accumulation of knowledge?

There's nowhere else I can think of.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

IOW, do you think perhaps there's something deeper going on than God just thinking, "Oh my God (oh wait, that's ME!) - they might gain some knowledge! I gotta punish them if they try to get some knowledge!" thing going on?

Actually, that's just what I'm saying: God had a long-term plan for mankind that didn't end (but began) with the banishment from Eden. So what I'm saying is, this sheds a new light on the idea of seeking knowledge (or maybe mucks it up even further!) insomuch as it seems to say that mankind's quest for knowledge (symbolised by the Apple) has eventually led to Christ's salvation and our adoption into a better position near God. So what are we to gather from this? I'm not talking about the attitude of "Oh blessed sin!" that Forkbeard brought up. I'm just talking about the quest for knowledge.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

But it is a moral and logical problem that seems insurmountable to me.

Could you please elaborate on these problems? I don't understand what you're referring to.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Oh God! I feel sorry for your children!!

Sorry, I fail to see the similarity

Hmm, I think I'll let that one alone for awhile and concentrate on the other ideas that have been brought up. It was kind of just an aside to myself, altho I think it's an aside with some merit.

There's nowhere else I can think of.

How about Babel? What do you think? (I didn't know the answer to the question when I posed it - I just thought it was an interesting question to consider).
Hmm, how 'bout David numbering his warriors?

Actually, that's just what I'm saying: God had a long-term plan for mankind that didn't end (but began) with the banishment from Eden. So what I'm saying is, this sheds a new light on the idea of seeking knowledge (or maybe mucks it up even further!) insomuch as it seems to say that mankind's quest for knowledge (symbolised by the Apple) has eventually led to Christ's salvation and our adoption into a better position near God. So what are we to gather from this? I'm not talking about the attitude of "Oh blessed sin!" that Forkbeard brought up. I'm just talking about the quest for knowledge.

I don't think man's "quest for knowledge" led to Christ's salvation... at least "quest for knowledge" in a pure, innocent sense. We probably better define what you mean by "quest for knowledge". I think there are good types (seeking cures for AIDS) and bad types (what type of torture is most effective?). I think motive is everything, and the motive behind the "quest for knowledge" that happened in the Garden was corrupt.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

How about Babel? What do you think? (I didn't know the answer to the question when I posed it - I just thought it was an interesting question to consider).

What father wouldn't take a loaded gun from the hands of his young playing child? If the tower causes them to think themselves equal to God, the tower is destroying them. The tower must be taken away.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Hmm, how 'bout David numbering his warriors?

Putting faith in the multitude of the troops rather than God. It's the same basic folly as Babel.

What do you think of this passage?

Ecclesiasties 1:18- With much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.

The passage seems opposed to the general message of Ecclesiasties, which many times celebrates wisdom.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

What father wouldn't take a loaded gun from the hands of his young playing child? If the tower causes them to think themselves equal to God, the tower is destroying them. The tower must be taken away.

How far do you think God would be willing to take this concept? How far do you think it is right to take this concept? Theoretically, as Lewis says, you could have God altering our brain waves if we start to think of something harmful.
(I don't know the answer or if there even is an answer; I'm just musing)

[Lief Erikson]

I don't know the answer either.

[Rían]

what do you think, though, and how would you support it?
(I know we can't know if you're right or not, but I think it's a valuable process to go through, and we usually end up learning more)


Oh Beren - wherefore art thou, thread-bumper?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

what do you think, though, and how would you support it?

God is a parent, and we are his children. Paul declares, "Fathers, do not exasperate your children!" God the Father agrees with Paul in this, and practices it. Parents know it is good to, "choose your battles carefully." This means targetting the most important flaws in the child. If the parent targeted all the flaws in his or her child, I think the child would swiftly grow exasperated and angry. Praise the Lord- this is unnecessary. The parents will steadily wear away the worst flaws, and the child will grow up to become a good, successful member of society.

I think that God will also first address us about our worst flaws. He won't tackle everything at once, for to do so would be to drive his children to despair. The current "worst flaws" he'll prick our consciences about and steadily, methodically wipe out. Once they are gone, he'll continue to the next layer, and then the next, and then the next. He'll continue this work steadily once we reach heaven, in my opinion. He'll continue until all our flaws are gone and we can stand pure and righteous before God, wholly sanctified.



When does a parent discipline his or her child? When do you, RÃ*an, discipline your children? I think that at about that same place Christ draws the line.

Parents use their best discernment. Sometimes they'll see it's best to simply talk to the disobedient child. Other times they'll just completely ignore the sin. Usually they will resort to every other method before they pull out the spoon. Sometimes, the disobedience is so outright that they must do this.

Occasionally, a child can go . . . wrong. Discipline doesn't help. Finally, in an act of tough love, it becomes necessary for the parent to turn the child out of his or her house. I've seen this happen before, once. The parents tried everything with their disobedient teenager, and finally they just had to turn him out of the house. The teenager was being a very bad influence upon their younger children. He was smoking, carrying on with bad friends, I think doing drugs and trying to do them secretly in the house. It finally became necessary to turn him out of the house. All of this-the scolding, the spanking, and finally that ultimate terrible step-were done in love.

I can't draw a line of where God thinks he should discipline and where he overlooks the offense. But he knows the human heart, and he knows what is best in every situation. I think that the model best to look at, when trying to understand his discipline, is the parent-child relationship.

[Rían]

Well-thought-out, with some good examples! Good point about not exasperating, and I see that's how God works in my life, too - only working on one or two things at a time, or else I would be completely overwhelmed.

I think one thing to add is this: we know one of God's desires is that no one should perish, and IMO it's important to keep this in mind as we think on these things. How would God deal with knowledge, given that He wants no one to perish, and also given that He has allowed us to make choices, and desires us to turn to Him freely? (read thru Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. for poetic descriptions of God's feelings on this) IMO, God wants us to get to a place where we are free to know everything, and nothing will turn us from him, but this is a gradual process because of all the error and mis-information out there masquerading as true knowledge.

(this got hasty at the end - I ran out of time because of a phone call I had to take - will say more later)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

we know one of God's desires is that no one should perish, and IMO it's important to keep this in mind as we think on these things. How would God deal with knowledge, given that He wants no one to perish, and also given that He has allowed us to make choices, and desires us to turn to Him freely? (read thru Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. for poetic descriptions of God's feelings on this)

Are you sure you want to go there? My answer to this would be simple enough. God doesn't have to "deal" with knowledge. He has predestined everything, planned all evil and good experienced in this universe with glorious results in mind. These are results that we cannot presently fathom. God turned the greatest evil-Christ's crucifixion on the cross-into the greatest good. He planned Christ's sufferings and death, and sent him to Earth for the very purpose of experiencing what he did, and saving mankind. Note that none of the disciples could understand any of the good that would come from Jesus' death, while he was being crucified or after he was gone. In the same way, God plans our sufferings and deaths for glories beyond imagining.

I think this is true also for nonbelievers who will go to hell, and for animals. All of this is designed for good.

As for God's wanting people not to perish, I find this understandable too. God's nature is love. God loves everyone, including the wicked. He knows that it is for the best that these people perish, yet it tears at his heart to do it.


Making choices . . . I think that God gives us the freedom to act according to our natures. God does not make us do things. He gives us a nature and personality, he plans everything to us, and he doesn't make us act out of accord to that. Freedom beyond this . . . freedom to act in a different way from what we are . . . in my opinion is not really freedom. It's random chance. Thank goodness that is not our nature! What a stupid creation that would be .

God also is limited by his nature. He can only act like what he is. He is love, and he cannot stop loving or change himself to no longer love. He must act according to his nature, just as we must.

We have less freedom than God only in that we are bound by sin. Sin enslaves us and perverts us, making us no longer able to act in freedom. It causes us to have a "sinful nature", which must be tossed aside in exchange for the new.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

IMO, God wants us to get to a place where we are free to know everything, and nothing will turn us from him, but this is a gradual process because of all the error and mis-information out there masquerading as true knowledge.

I don't fully understand this last.

[Beren3000]

I'm here, Rian!
However, I don't have much to say I'm afraid:

Originally Posted by Rian

IMO, God wants us to get to a place where we are free to know everything, and nothing will turn us from him, but this is a gradual process because of all the error and mis-information out there masquerading as true knowledge.

That's a really good point! I've never looked at it this way before. I think you're right: in that case the Tree of Knowledge in Eden was one fo the "mis-information masquerading as true knowledge" and seeing how Man ate from it, God "wanted us not to perish", so he redressed this through Christ. That makes sense to me. Thanks, Rian

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Are you sure you want to go there?

I know we have some disagreements on this subject I imagine it's only because of the complexity of it, though, and the difficulties of language.

My answer to this would be simple enough. God doesn't have to "deal" with knowledge.

I didn't mean "deal" like it's a problem with Him, if that's what you thought I meant. I mean that it seems that He allows a great deal of latitude in this area of knowledge, but on very rare occasions will deny access to some knowledge out of His mercy. IOW, he'll let us get burned by the stove (sometimes very severely and with lasting (in this world) damage), but not blown up.

He has predestined everything, planned all evil and good experienced in this universe with glorious results in mind. These are results that we cannot presently fathom. God turned the greatest evil-Christ's crucifixion on the cross-into the greatest good. He planned Christ's sufferings and death, and sent him to Earth for the very purpose of experiencing what he did, and saving mankind. Note that none of the disciples could understand any of the good that would come from Jesus' death, while he was being crucified or after he was gone. In the same way, God plans our sufferings and deaths for glories beyond imagining.

I agree with this.

I think this is true also for nonbelievers who will go to hell, and for animals. All of this is designed for good.

For the first part - one can't force good on someone that doesn't want it.

As for God's wanting people not to perish, I find this understandable too. God's nature is love. God loves everyone, including the wicked. He knows that it is for the best that these people perish, yet it tears at his heart to do it.

I have a bit of a wilder view of God than you do, and frankly, it took me years to come to it - give me a call in 20 years and we'll talk again! (n.b. - a great book I've read recently is "Your God is Too Safe" by Mark Buchanan). I would disagree that it is "best" that these people perish, given that the Bible explicitly says that it's God's desire that none perish, and He can only desire what is best for us. Perhaps it would be "best" in the sense of "best possible" - e.g., it is better to be in Hell, undeceived, than to stay deceived by thinking you could be God, or God does not exist, or similar things.

Making choices . . . I think that God gives us the freedom to act according to our natures. God does not make us do things. He gives us a nature and personality, he plans everything to us, and he doesn't make us act out of accord to that. Freedom beyond this . . . freedom to act in a different way from what we are . . . in my opinion is not really freedom. It's random chance. Thank goodness that is not our nature! What a stupid creation that would be .

This is a tricky subject - I pretty much agree with you here.

God also is limited by his nature. He can only act like what he is. He is love, and he cannot stop loving or change himself to no longer love. He must act according to his nature, just as we must.

Yes, I agree. "All things are possible with God" - and God acting unloving is a "non-thing."

We have less freedom than God only in that we are bound by sin. Sin enslaves us and perverts us, making us no longer able to act in freedom. It causes us to have a "sinful nature", which must be tossed aside in exchange for the new.

yes, good point about sin affecting our freedom. As I grow in Christ, I'm amazed at the freedoms that we have, and look back at my life years ago in astonishment at how enslaved I was and how I never knew it.

I don't fully understand this last.

Hmm - I guess this could actually have something to do with what you wrote above about sin. I think we have to be trained in handling truth correctly. I'm not expressing this well; let me know if you want me to try some more.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I'm here, Rian!

Good

That's a really good point! I've never looked at it this way before. I think you're right: in that case the Tree of Knowledge in Eden was one fo the "mis-information masquerading as true knowledge" and seeing how Man ate from it, God "wanted us not to perish", so he redressed this through Christ. That makes sense to me. Thanks, Rian

I don't think I quite meant what I think you think I meant ... (how's that for a confusing sentence!)

I think the Tree of TKOGAE was for several reasons - the most important being that it gave Adam and Eve a concrete way to love God back by choosing to deny themselves just a tiny bit for one that they love (as Milton says, *ack! can't find my Milton right now - am still recovering from the last two vacations!* - well you know, in the beginning, where he says how they had paradise with one tiny thing withheld). It's like how I can save the last cookie for my husband, even tho I reeeeeealy want it, so I can say "I did this for you!"

God told them the truth about the tree - it was Satan who gave them the misinformation. And I think I've said this before, but the word "knowledge" was the word used for "intimate experience" - IOW, they would know the effects of evil personally, in themselves, which they hadn't before.

What I mainly meant in the section you quoted is that because we have so much misinformation, sometimes when we hear the actual truth, we will misinterpret it. Or something like that