Paradise Lost

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I read PL in English. I always try to read literature in its original language if I can help it.

Yes, I can see why. Things definitely get lost in translation, unfortunately.

As to The Comedy, I read a good, semi-poetry version by an American translator called John Ciardi.

I'll see if I can find it

About your other questions:
My native language is Arabic; I speak French and English quite well. Two years ago, I tried to learn German (and have picked up some basics) but I found it hard to keep going with it what with school going on and all

Did you find it hard picking up the different alphabet style from yours when you learned French and English? That seems like the hardest part. For me, I studied German and Spanish, but they use basically the same letters as English, so that makes it easier. My dad took some business trips to China, and it was very difficult, because you just can't make any type of sense of the alphabet if you're only familiar with the English alphabet.

I think the Arabic style alphabets are really cool looking, but I"m afraid that to me, they sometimes just look like long squiggly lines with some marks on top! Are the letters just all connected together when you write words? (maybe this should go on the "languages" thread ... )

I have no "phrases" to share with you from PL, I'm afraid. I read it a while ago and barely remember the wording. There was this part I particularly liked though: the part where Satan says he can't really escape Hell because Envy creates Hell within himself. Such strong words!

Here are a few lines that I think you mean:

Book IV, lines 18-23, 73-75
Horror and doubt distract
His troubled thoughts, and from the bottom stir
The Hell within him, for within him Hell
He brings, and round about him, nor from Hell
One step, no more than from himself, can fly
By change of place.
...
[Satan speaking]
"Me miserable! Which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath, and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is Hell. Myself am Hell,

Whew! Milton has such a skill for saying a lot with few words!

Here's a couple of my favorite "shorties":

III:123 "For so I formed them free, and free they must remain, Til they enthrall themselves." (God speaking about mankind)

III:210 "Die he or justice must" (God speaking about how sin must be paid for or justice is a mockery)

III:236 "Behold me, then: me for him, life for life I offer. On me let Thine anger fall; account me man." (Jesus offering his life to God in place of man to satisfy justice)

III:252 "Death his Death's wound shall then receive" (Jesus speaking of his victory over death)

III:683 "Hypocrisy, the only evil that walks invisible, except to God alone"

IX:239 "for smiles from reason flow"

IX:782 "Earth felt the wound" (this was right after Eve ate the fruit - what a powerful picture!)

IX:1058 "He covered, but his robe uncovered more." (whew! what a use of words! The very fact that he covered up his body uncovered that he sinned...)

IX:1070 "False in our promised rising" (Adam's words to Eve after they realized they were lied to by Satan)

X:798 "Can He make deathless death?" (Adam speaking about God)

XII:414 "slain for bringing life." (Michael speaking of Jesus' death on the cross to bring life to us)

XII:585 "Then wilt thou not be loath to leave this Paradise, but shalt possess a Paradise within thee, happier far." (Michael's profound words about those who choose to become reconciled with God thru Jesus's sacrifice on the cross)

Enjoy your weekend

you too

[Beren3000]

I didn't find it hard to adapt to the Latin alphabet system, as I started studying it since Kindergarten. It wasn't really that hard learning the letters seeing how we made them into the famous a, b, c, d, e, f, g,... song
About Arabic letters, they're connected all the time (with some rare exceptions).
So do you speak German and Spanish fluently? (Forget about moving this to the Lang. thread, it appears we have this thread to ourselves already- such a shame! )

Wow! It appears you've quoted all of the "quotable" parts. Here's one that I remembered. Book X, lines 1001-1006
[Adam and Eve, discovering their sin, discuss what to do next and here Eve is counselling they commit suicide]

Let us seek Death, or, he not found, supply
With our own hands his office on ourselves.
Why stand we longer shivering under fears
That show no end but death, and have the power,
Of many ways to die the shortest choosing,
Destruction with destruction to destroy?

Bolding mine, of course. I so love the wording of this part. I think I'll read PL again some time.

EDIT: Yes, the part you quoted was indeed the part I referred to. Profound meaning, there!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I didn't find it hard to adapt to the Latin alphabet system, as I started studying it since Kindergarten.

I wish we would do that in the US (start studying other languages in Kindergarten). Right now, it's typical to start at age 13 or so, which is way too late.

So do you speak German and Spanish fluently?

No, it's been too long now I spoke them enough to get by when I visited Spain and Germany, that's all, but that was 20 years ago and there's not much left

(Forget about moving this to the Lang. thread, it appears we have this thread to ourselves already- such a shame! )

I know People are really missing out on a great work here!

Here's one that I remembered. Book X, lines 1001-1006 ... I so love the wording of this part.

Yes, that's really powerful, and what a use of words!

EDIT: Yes, the part you quoted was indeed the part I referred to. Profound meaning, there!

Yes, very.

[Beren3000]

From one of your older posts:

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I saw your note about French in the Jane Eyre thread; I'll have to ask you what some phrases are in Egyptian! That would be interesting to hear.

So, fire away! I think this could be interesting. Here's an appetizer for you:
The word "the" in Spanish is "el", right? Well, guess what..."el" is Arabic for "the", it was incorporated into the Spanish language during the Arabic occupation of Andalousia (sp.?)

I have another question from PL. It's about the Fall of Angels: where do we learn of that? I don't remember it being mentioned in the Bible? Does it come from tradition, or what?

[Rían]

*is quickly checking the thread before church*

No, it's not tradition, it's mentioned in several places in the Bible. I have a rough idea where, so I'll find a reference for you shortly.

Hmm, as for phrases, how about the classic "I love you"?

German: Ich liebe dich
Spanich: Yo te amo
French: Je t'amor (please correct this, I don't know how to spell it)
Arabic: ???


Also, what are the words for God the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, and the general word for God (the trinity together)?

Does my real name translate into anything roughly Arabic?

Are there lots of dialects in Arabic?

[Beren3000]

Wow! So much for "quickly checking".
First off, I'd be really grateful if you could find me that Biblical reference.

Let's start with the translations then

First off, "I love you" in French would be: Je t'aime.
In Arabic (Egyptian dialect) it would be "bahebak" when talking to a male and "bahebek" when talking to a female. The "h" in both words would be the best way to Latinize the Arabic sound, however it is not pronounced quite the same as the English "h".

God the Father: Al Aab.
Jesus: Yasooa (cf. Joshua). Christ: Al maseeh (literally, the Anointed one)
The Holy Spirit: Al roah el qodos (roah= spirit, qodos= holy)
God as a whole: Allah
I'm afraid your real name wouldn't have a meaning in Arabic.
As to dialects, there are as many dialects (almost) as there are Arab countries. Could that apply to the States? I mean could you tell which State a person is from by listening to their accent?

[Rían]

There's really not too much on the fall of Satan - to paraphrase Aslan in the Narnia stories, it's not our story. Here's some references, tho : Rev 12:9 is perhaps the best, but also Rev 12:3-4 and 7-9; also Ezekiel 28:11-19 and Isaiah 14:12-15, and in Daniel 10:12-13 it talks about angelic beings fighting. The stuff in PL about this is poetic license based on the true account that Satan rebelled and fell, along with many other angels.

Thanks for the language info! I think languages are fascinating!

In the US, you can definitely tell general regions from accents, but not, I'd say, a particular state, esp. since people move around a lot in the US and accents get blended. Some of the strongest regional accents, IMO, would be southern, northeastern, midwestern, and western.

Can you pretty much converse with people that speak other Arabic dialects, or are they too different?

[Beren3000]

Thanks for the Biblical references!

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Can you pretty much converse with people that speak other Arabic dialects, or are they too different?

Before I went to the UAE, I had never come into contact with other dialects. But the UAE being cosmopolitan, this contact was forced on me. I didn't find it hard at all to get used to the (small) differences between the dialects. It just takes some getting used to. Now my friends speak in their dialects and I answer with my own dialect back and we understand one another perfectly. What makes it easy is that some dialects derive their words from High Arabic, the literary form of Arabic common to all Arab countries.

EDIT: Just checked the Biblical references and they're great! Thank you very much The best one IMO is the one in Isaiah. May I ask how you found them? Is your Bible indexed?

[Beren3000]

Hey, Rian. I have new back up for my idea about the danger of increasing knowledge. From the book of Proverbs: 30:8-9 (bolding mine)

8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

What do you think?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Thanks for the Biblical references! ... EDIT: Just checked the Biblical references and they're great! Thank you very much The best one IMO is the one in Isaiah. May I ask how you found them? Is your Bible indexed?

You're welcome!

I found them either by a concordance or one of my topical Bible dictionaries, I don't remember. I had a general knowledge that they were there, and used one or both reference books to find them


Re: your Proverbs idea - yes, that's a good idea! I see what you're saying. I think it boils down to if we make ANYTHING (including knowledge) other than God out to be God, then "we's in biiiig trouble!" (pardon the slang!) I would say that if a person desires knowledge so much, then his desire for God is less than what it should be (for his own good), and this will harm him. I don't think desires for things like knowledge are bad in themselves; just bad when they are trying to get on the throne of your heart in place of God Knowledge (or anything other than God) is a good servant but a bad master.

BTW, I just quoted from PL on the Theology thread - did you see it? What a great work this is! Except I have just a few minor theological problems with it concerning the Fall - for example, I think Adam was WITH Eve when the snake tempted her - the Bible reads "She gave also to her husband WITH HER, and he ate". Also, I don't think it was quite so "I must be brave and stay with Eve so I"ll eat the apple" on Adam's part as Milton makes out. And of course, there's that interesting verse in the Bible where it points out that Eve was deceived, and Adam was NOT, and it's ADAM who is responsible for the first sin.

Thoughts?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

the Bible reads "She gave also to her husband WITH HER, and he ate". Also, I don't think it was quite so "I must be brave and stay with Eve so I"ll eat the apple" on Adam's part as Milton makes out. And of course, there's that interesting verse in the Bible where it points out that Eve was deceived, and Adam was NOT, and it's ADAM who is responsible for the first sin.

Ok, that Biblical quotation "with her" could simply mean she shared the apple WITH Adam. It doesn't necessarily mean that he was with her when Satan tempted her.
However I agree that Adam was at fault, too and it wasn't a matter of "bravery" at all.
I'd be interested to read that verse saying that Adam was responsible for the first sin. As to Eve's being deceived, I'm not contending that, but I think that she should've known better, since God Had already given them clear orders not to eat from the Tree; so deception by Satan IMHO is not an excuse, it rather makes Eve look worse. I'd say that BOTH Adam and Eve were responsible for the first sin.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Ok, that Biblical quotation "with her" could simply mean she shared the apple WITH Adam. It doesn't necessarily mean that he was with her when Satan tempted her.
However I agree that Adam was at fault, too and it wasn't a matter of "bravery" at all.
I'd be interested to read that verse saying that Adam was responsible for the first sin. As to Eve's being deceived, I'm not contending that, but I think that she should've known better, since God Had already given them clear orders not to eat from the Tree; so deception by Satan IMHO is not an excuse, it rather makes Eve look worse. I'd say that BOTH Adam and Eve were responsible for the first sin.

I have to disagree with you there. THe "with her" in the Hebrew text goes with "husband", not "fruit"...that is, it isn't "she gave him the fruit with her", but "she gave to her husband with her", clearly meant to tell us where "the husband" was, not where the fruit or the woman were.

Eve, by the way, is also told NOTHING directly by God about the tree, Adam is, and Eve repeats it in a slightly altered way in chapter 3, but there isn't a record of Eve being told about the tree by God.

About Adam being responsible for the first sin, there's Romans 5:12 "For just as by one man sin entered the world....."

FB

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

clearly meant to tell us where "the husband" was, not where the fruit or the woman were.

So far, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

About Adam being responsible for the first sin, there's Romans 5:12 "For just as by one man sin entered the world....."

But if only Adam is responsible for the sin, why was Eve punished?
Probably this verse is intended to say that just as Adam's sin (an individual) was projected onto all of mankind, Christ's salvation (an "individual", in a sense) was projected onto all of mankind, too.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But if only Adam is responsible for the sin, why was Eve punished?
Probably this verse is intended to say that just as Adam's sin (an individual) was projected onto all of mankind, Christ's salvation (an "individual", in a sense) was projected onto all of mankind, too.

Good question! and I think your answer is right, too. And just like when the head of an organization messes up, the whole organization suffers, so Eve, who is under the headship of Adam, suffered from Adam's sin. Also, I think Eve was at fault in a smaller way - she should have checked in with Adam - and Eve's punishment reflects the way that she erred.

The verse about Eve being deceived and Adam NOT being deceived is I Tim 2:14.

Thanks for your reference, FB! That's the one I was thinking of.

[Beren3000]

*BUMP*

New aspect for the previous discussion (are you there, RÃ*an ) :

It is true that when man sought for more knowledge God punished him, but that punishment led to man's gaining a higher status eventually: Christ's salvation and a much closer relationship with God as a result. So what is the "moral" here? Is knowledge, even the "forbidden" one preferrable to ignorance?

[Beren3000]

My previous post didn't update the thread. Hope this brings it back to the front....

[Lotesse]

I'll help you bump this thread, beren3000; it's such an interesting conversation you guys have going on here.


QUOTE=Beren3000]* So what is the "moral" here? Is knowledge, even the "forbidden" one preferrable to ignorance?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I'll help you bump this thread, beren3000; it's such an interesting conversation you guys have going on here.


QUOTE=Beren3000]* So what is the "moral" here? Is knowledge, even the "forbidden" one preferrable to ignorance?

Absolutely.[/QUOTE]

Milton has been accused of being on the devil's side......but to address more directly the question, this is one of the problems not just with Milton but with that whole perspective on sin and God's double super secret plan now fully leaked. It gave rise to the whole "oh blessed sin" trope of patristic, medieval, and early modern theology and theological poetry. But it is a moral and logical problem that seems insurmountable to me.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Absolutely.

You say we had an interesting discussion, so I suppose you've read some of the posts in it; so...would you care to elaborate on this "absolutely"? Why do you maintain that knowledge is absolutely preferable in spite of the dangers of (the wrong sort of) knowledge?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

But it is a moral and logical problem that seems insurmountable to me.

Glad someone else feels the same way!

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

You say we had an interesting discussion, so I suppose you've read some of the posts in it; so...would you care to elaborate on this "absolutely"? Why do you maintain that knowledge is absolutely preferable in spite of the dangers of (the wrong sort of) knowledge?

Because knowledge is freedom. Knowledge may be dangerous, safe, "right", "wrong", whatever - but most important of all, it is freedom. Maybe freedom is dangerous to some people, maybe not; but give me knowledge and the freedom it grants ANY DAY over the constraints or "safety" of imposed ignorance.