Arwen vs Glorfindel

[Galin]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Storywise, it would make far less sense to send Legolas out to find Frodo and company, since he's an Elf from Mirkwood who's never been to Rivendell- he's the guy you're going to send out looking through the trackless wastes of Wilderland?

Far less sense than 'sending' Arwen Undomiel alone? if so I can't agree.

I can't recall for certain, but I don't think Jackson even bothered to really explain -- internally in the films I mean -- why Elrond's beloved daughter turns up in the woods, or what actually happened that led to her presence here.


Jackson fans have tried by attempting to draw comparisons to Luthien, but again, general comparisons of character do not substitute for actual storyline in any case. Tolkien's tale of Beren and Luthien is a specific story with its own particular circumstances and motives... and simply pointing to Luthien's helping of Beren in a wholly different context and set of circumstances does not automatically serve to explain Jackson's Arwen substitution -- not serve well enough for me anyway.

Plus you lose the "Gathering of the Free People" scen at the Council- though I suppose you could put in "an Elf from Mirkwood whom you've already met". Especially to somone who hasn't read the books, to who all these Elves look alike anyway.

Yes I submit that only people who have read the book will really stop and wonder why Legolas of Mirkwood was sent; but Jackson has already raised that question for book readers with Arwen in any case.

The non-Tolkien audience is going to see 'Elf from Elf realm' here, and the Tolkien audience would have to accept that although an internal detail has been altered for arguable cinematic reasons (but not wholly certainly 'necessary' cinematic reasons, it might be said), at least the scene from the book can be followed fairly closely, and a character is introduced who will be part of the rest of the tale.

[GrayMouser]

I assume for the same reason as in the book- as Glorfindel says, he sends out those few who can ride openly against the Black Riders- and since Tolkien says:

"In all such things not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal...there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

Arwen is a princess of one of the most distinguished houses of the Eldar, granddaughter of Celeborn and Galadriel on her mother's side, and of Earendil and Elwing on her father's side; by Tolkien's own words she'd be nearly as good as her brothers; she would by any measure be one of the most powerful searchers Elrond could send out- plus she knew all the concealments and protections Elrond had set around Rivendell.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

I assume for the same reason as in the book- as Glorfindel says, he sends out those few who can ride openly against the Black Riders- and since Tolkien says "In all such things not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal... there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

That's from Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, which also states: 'For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.' And part of the quote you gave above leaves off the beginning of a sentence which I think is notable here:

'Indeed in dire straights or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed...'

So to my mind the information is that Elven women are stronger that mortals might think (with mortals comparing the strength of Men to Women), and thus could fight well, say, when a realm was being invaded and they had no choice.

Yet Elrond should have had plenty of warriors to send out before risking his daughter alone here. Incidentally, just as an aside, according to Tolkien Arwen was not an Elf, not one of the nissi technically, but one of the half-elven who had abandoned her Elvish rights -- see Letters.

Arwen is a princess of one of the most distinguished houses of the Eldar, granddaughter of Celeborn and Galadriel on her mother's side, and of Earendil and Elwing on her father's side; by Tolkien's own words she'd be nearly as good as her brothers; she would by any measure be one of the most powerful searchers Elrond could send out- plus she knew all the concealments and protections Elrond had set around Rivendell.

I must disagree that one can say she was 'one of the most powerful searchers Elrond could send out' (another interesting aside: in a late text Tolkien actually says that Glorfindel was seemingly the most powerful).

We never read of Arwen riding with her brothers slaying orcs or out scouting, and after Arwen and Aragorn plighted their troth, and Aragorn 'went forth again to danger and toil' we also read that 'Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought' (Appendix A)


Again, Jackson's stated 'problem' concerned introductions in any event, and this could have been solved with Legolas -- but speaking of martial prowess, the filmmakers went overboard (in my opinion) with respect to inventing 'impossible' battle stunts for Legolas.