Nature and origin of dragons

Tuor of Gondolin · 10-25-2003, 11:11 AM

From some references to dragons in Middle-earth writings, and comments such as an old " Hobbit" thread "Dragon Info", started Dec., 24, 2002, it seems to me there are two possible explanations for the origin of dragons, both of which have problems.
1---they were maia (like balrogs)
2---they were a twisted race (like orcs)

If maia, then why is it said that Morgoth (taking a long time to achieve it) "twisted them", wouldn't it have been a voluntary decision to make themselves incarnate?

If a twisted "race", then where did they come from? Morgoth could not create life, and dragons could not come from kelvar, and presumably could not come from elves, men [hobbits are related to humans], ents, or dwarves. So what then would the origin of dragons be?

The only possible "loophole" I can see is the eagles of Manwe, if you accept Robert Foster's view in the complete guide to Middle-earth "Apparently the Eagles of Manwe are the highest of the Kelvar, just as the Ents are of the olvar." So perhaps dragons are corrupted Great Eagles? But I had the impression that the predominant view is that the Eagles are maia.

Attalus · 10-25-2003, 07:35 PM

*Runs screaming from thread*

Keith K · 10-25-2003, 09:05 PM

Perhaps they were created in the same fashion as the beasts that Sauron bred for the Nazgul to ride? Doesn't really fit though since dragons were sentient beings rather than dumb beasts. I reckon I had best follow Attalus before I begin screaming as well.

Sheeana · 10-25-2003, 11:23 PM

Not again!! *Runs away with Attalus*

Lefty Scaevola · 10-26-2003, 12:10 PM

Well they breed and mulitply, and have great socerous powers. I would have the GUESS that they are developed from both biologial stock and Mair ancestry, annalogus to Luthien.

Attalus · 10-26-2003, 12:12 PM

Seriously, all that we know of the origins of dragons is that the first of them, Glaurung, appeared in one of Morgoth's fortresses, Angband, and was the father of all the rest.

***Earniel*** · 10-26-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheeana
*Runs away with Attalus*

Oh, eloping, are we?

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Ñólendil · 10-29-2003, 02:28 PM

There were plenty bizarre primitive beasts hanging around in the ancient ages--many animals in Valinor, for instance, have never been seen in Middle-earth. Then there are the creatures of horn and tusk (I think tusk) that dyed the earth with blood after the Spring of Arda in the primitive mythology. During the spring, Morgoth could have taken creatures of Oromë's vision, and corrupted them into Dragons. Perhaps he simply used primitive ancestors of the lizard to make Glaurung, he's lizard-like enough.

One thing is for sure though: Glaurung was animated because he was filled with the power and will of Morgoth. This is stated in the Narn-I-Chîn-Húrin. All Morgoth needed, then, was a body, and the life of the body would be his own dispersed self (as the life of the Ring was the will of Sauron).

10-25-2003, 11:11 AM	#1
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Nature and origin of dragons From some references to dragons in Middle-earth writings, and comments such as an old " Hobbit" thread "Dragon Info", started Dec., 24, 2002, it seems to me there are two possible explanations for the origin of dragons, both of which have problems. 1---they were maia (like balrogs) 2---they were a twisted race (like orcs) If maia, then why is it said that Morgoth (taking a long time to achieve it) "twisted them", wouldn't it have been a voluntary decision to make themselves incarnate? If a twisted "race", then where did they come from? Morgoth could not create life, and dragons could not come from kelvar, and presumably could not come from elves, men [hobbits are related to humans], ents, or dwarves. So what then would the origin of dragons be? The only possible "loophole" I can see is the eagles of Manwe, if you accept Robert Foster's view in the complete guide to Middle-earth "Apparently the Eagles of Manwe are the highest of the Kelvar, just as the Ents are of the olvar." So perhaps dragons are corrupted Great Eagles? But I had the impression that the predominant view is that the Eagles are maia. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

10-25-2003, 07:35 PM	#2
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Runs screaming from thread __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-26-2003, 12:10 PM	#5
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Well they breed and mulitply, and have great socerous powers. I would have the GUESS that they are developed from both biologial stock and Mair ancestry, annalogus to Luthien. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

10-26-2003, 12:12 PM	#6
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Seriously, all that we know of the origins of dragons is that the first of them, Glaurung, appeared in one of Morgoth's fortresses, Angband, and was the father of all the rest. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-29-2003, 02:28 PM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	There were plenty bizarre primitive beasts hanging around in the ancient ages--many animals in Valinor, for instance, have never been seen in Middle-earth. Then there are the creatures of horn and tusk (I think tusk) that dyed the earth with blood after the Spring of Arda in the primitive mythology. During the spring, Morgoth could have taken creatures of Oromë's vision, and corrupted them into Dragons. Perhaps he simply used primitive ancestors of the lizard to make Glaurung, he's lizard-like enough. One thing is for sure though: Glaurung was animated because he was filled with the power and will of Morgoth. This is stated in the Narn-I-Chîn-Húrin. All Morgoth needed, then, was a body, and the life of the body would be his own dispersed self (as the life of the Ring was the will of Sauron). __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-25-2003, 09:05 PM	#3
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	Perhaps they were created in the same fashion as the beasts that Sauron bred for the Nazgul to ride? Doesn't really fit though since dragons were sentient beings rather than dumb beasts. I reckon I had best follow Attalus before I begin screaming as well.

10-25-2003, 11:23 PM	#4
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	Not again!! Runs away with Attalus

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