Arian Greeks?

***Valandil*** · 06-22-2012, 10:51 PM

OK - I'll start this with a story and lead into a question:

Three years ago, #1 son was in a baseball league. One of the kids had a Greek name - and his mother was dark complexioned with black hair - looked about as 'Greek' as I thought I could expect. But the last name was her husband's, and he had red hair. I asked her about this once. She referred to him as an 'Arian Greek'. Further - she said that historically Greeks had been of Arian stock - but the centuries of occupation by the Ottomans had changed that.

It was news to me. But I figure I could check this with my European Entmoot friends. Have you folks heard this before? Is it commonly understood to be the case?

Thank you.

The last sane person · 06-23-2012, 03:41 AM

Looking at classical Greek statues, that should not come as a surprise to you at all. There is a reason why the Greeks have such a deep dislike of Turkey to this day, and it's not idle vitrol they spew when they say there was a "rape of Greece".

**Mari** · 06-23-2012, 07:24 AM

In early Ottoman society, having red hair was rare and red-heads would be held in high esteem. In Turkish society now, you can still find the occasional natural red-head though.

Willow Oran · 06-23-2012, 05:55 PM

I've heard that red hair and other recessive traits aren't too uncommon in the northern parts of the region, such as Macedonia.

GrayMouser · 06-23-2012, 10:25 PM

I think that should be "Aryan" Greeks- with a 'y', referring to the supposed race.

"Arian" being the Christian belief that the Son was created by the Father, who is greater than the Son-heresy!

GrayMouser · 06-23-2012, 10:53 PM

I think this has more to do with 19th century racialism than having any factual base.

Classical references often point out the original Macedonians and Thracians as blonde-haired and blue-eyed as a way of contrasting them with the Greeks of the peninsula.

The classical Greeks were a mixture of indigenous people and several waves of invaders from the north west, Anatolia, and possibly the Levant.

And of course the people of Turkey are not Turks.

06-23-2012, 03:41 AM	#2
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	Looking at classical Greek statues, that should not come as a surprise to you at all. There is a reason why the Greeks have such a deep dislike of Turkey to this day, and it's not idle vitrol they spew when they say there was a "rape of Greece". __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

06-23-2012, 07:24 AM	#3
Mari Elf Lady Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale Posts: 8,588	In early Ottoman society, having red hair was rare and red-heads would be held in high esteem. In Turkish society now, you can still find the occasional natural red-head though. __________________ Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply. ...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"...

06-23-2012, 05:55 PM	#4
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	I've heard that red hair and other recessive traits aren't too uncommon in the northern parts of the region, such as Macedonia. __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

06-23-2012, 10:25 PM	#5
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	I think that should be "Aryan" Greeks- with a 'y', referring to the supposed race. "Arian" being the Christian belief that the Son was created by the Father, who is greater than the Son-heresy! __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

06-23-2012, 10:53 PM	#6
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	I think this has more to do with 19th century racialism than having any factual base. Classical references often point out the original Macedonians and Thracians as blonde-haired and blue-eyed as a way of contrasting them with the Greeks of the peninsula. The classical Greeks were a mixture of indigenous people and several waves of invaders from the north west, Anatolia, and possibly the Levant. And of course the people of Turkey are not Turks. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

06-22-2012, 10:51 PM	#1
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Arian Greeks? OK - I'll start this with a story and lead into a question: Three years ago, #1 son was in a baseball league. One of the kids had a Greek name - and his mother was dark complexioned with black hair - looked about as 'Greek' as I thought I could expect. But the last name was her husband's, and he had red hair. I asked her about this once. She referred to him as an 'Arian Greek'. Further - she said that historically Greeks had been of Arian stock - but the centuries of occupation by the Ottomans had changed that. It was news to me. But I figure I could check this with my European Entmoot friends. Have you folks heard this before? Is it commonly understood to be the case? Thank you. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

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