7 Killed in Oslo in terror attack bombing!

[Varnafindë]

He had written (or would that be 'ticked off'?) in his facebook profile that he was Christian conservative. But he wrote in his manifesto that he wasn't very religious.

He pleaded 'not guilty' to the charge - that is, he admitted to have done the bombing and the shooting, but he didn't see it as a criminal offense.

[inked]

From a reader of the Manifesto the perpetrator posted:

'He wrote: “Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I’m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe.

Q: Do I have to believe in God or Jesus in order to become a Justiciar Knight?

A: As this is a cultural war, our definition of being a Christian does not necessarily constitute that you are required to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus. Being a Christian can mean many things;

- That you believe in and want to protect Europe’s Christian cultural heritage. The European cultural heritage, our norms (moral codes and social structures included), our traditions and our modern political systems are based on Christianity -Protestantism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and the legacy of the European enlightenment (reason is the primary source and legitimacy for authority).

It is not required that you have a personal relationship with God or Jesus in order to fight for our Christian cultural heritage and the European way. In many ways, our modern societies and European secularism is a result of European Christendom and the enlightenment. It is therefore essential to understand the difference between a “Christian fundamentalist theocracy” (everything we do not want) and a secular European society based on our Christian cultural heritage (what we do want).
So no, you don’t need to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus to fight for our Christian cultural heritage. It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy (Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter)). The PCCTS, Knights Templar is therefore not a religious organisation but rather a Christian “culturalist” military order.” '

(hat tip to Paula, cf: http://www.standfirminfaith.com/?/sf/page/27618)

Certainly not the dyspeptic mutterings of a fundamentalist Christian.

[brownjenkins]

Sounds like someone who thought about religion a lot more than he thought about humanity.

[Varnafindë]

And about religion as cultural legacy more than as either philosophy or worship.

I'm back at work now, and on Tuesday I went around town to watch the damages. The streets around the main buildings were still closed off, and on all the temporary fences there were flowers and notes with poems or greetings or just "we'll never forget you".

There had been a memorial service at Oslo Cathedral just a couple of days after the events, and people had brought flowers then, and added flowers over the days. On Tuesday all the flowers were still there - filling the whole section of the street in front of the Cathedral, and the small parks on each side of it. There were flowers and flowers, mostly roses, but other flowers as well; notes, candles, flags, teddy bears ... It reminded me of Kensington Gardens after Diana's death.

They have removed the oldest flowers now and opened the street again, but they encourage people to leave flowers in the park for as long as they want to. And everything will be kept and made good use of - the flowers will be composted and possibly used for a memorial garden.

Most of the funerals have taken place now. I'm fairly certain that at least one of them is for someone who would have been a future prime minister if he or she had lived. A girl told a journalist that she had bought a new dress, and she was going to wear it at seven funerals ...

[Varnafindë]

This morning his sentence was announced: 21 years of "Preventive Detention".
After 21 years the court has the right to decide whether it's necessary to take further preventive measures, and if necessary to prolong his detention for 5 years. They have the right to do this every 5 years if they still think there's need for it.

This implies that preventive detention in principle may lead to a life-time in prison.

Many of us think that a life-time in prison is no more than what he deserves.

[Insidious Rex]

So its kind of a Charles Manson situation where he gets to appeal to the parole board every few years only to be turned down like clockwork? Im assuming they have no intention of letting this guy go. Americans are shocked to see the number of years be so low but it sounds like it works like our life in prison sentence works over here, just that the number of years is the time before first appeal?

[Jonathan]

Indeed 21 years de jure, but de facto he got a life sentence just as he wanted himself. Given his current stance on things, he has no intention of appealing, not now or ever. But of course, never say never...

The topic on everyone's lips prior to today was whether he'd be judged sane or not. And he was found sane, ie fully accountable for his actions. "Sane" in this case also meaning he wasn't psychotic at the time of the crime - he's evidently got one or two personality disorders but that's not the same as insanity.

Though, the first team of forensic psychiatrists actually deemed him psychotic. Something that many found surprising, me included. I read many an article about him, his preparations and execution of the attacks and I never perceived any grounds for there being any outright delusions, hallucinations etc. involved.

There was some outcry about his alleged insanity but today the court ruled him sane. Seems many people are quite pleased with that. They want him stuffed away in prison, period, not be given psychiatric care.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Though, the first team of forensic psychiatrists actually deemed him psychotic. Something that many found surprising, me included. I read many an article about him, his preparations and execution of the attacks and I never perceived any grounds for there being any outright delusions, hallucinations etc. involved.

One of the reasons the first team gave for their decision was that he was using words that he had made up himself.

The team just didn't recognize those words, so they decided they were made up. They didn't check places like the Internet to see whether anyone else were using the same words.

Which they were - those were words commonly used in the circles where he was joining discussions.

The second team of forensic psychiatrists did not deem him psychotic. And the court must have trusted their argumentation.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

So its kind of a Charles Manson situation where he gets to appeal to the parole board every few years only to be turned down like clockwork? Im assuming they have no intention of letting this guy go. Americans are shocked to see the number of years be so low but it sounds like it works like our life in prison sentence works over here, just that the number of years is the time before first appeal?

Well, you'd hope it'll be like clockwork, anyway.

Over here they can't even be bothered to let murderers sit out their entire time. Even 'for life' isn't for life anymore when the prisons are full. The whole land here is in uproar because a murderer is getting out of prison before she even spent half of her time behind bars. Partaker in one of the most horrible child-abuse and murder cases Belgium has ever known and out she walks. Never shown remorse, never bothered to pay the damages the court ordered. But hey, that's the way our politicians make the laws and how our 'justice' department follows them. How dare we normal people object! Don't we know it's the law, their hands are tied, can't have people decide these things for themselves, etc. And isn't it awefully nice of the nuns (yeah, seriously) to be so willing to house her so she can get out of prison early while the community will pay for the (expensive) permanent, around-the-clock police protection she and the nuns' cloister are going to get?

Oh, pray it'll be like clockwork, indeed. But in some cases it will be in vain.

[Mari]

It's scary to think you can be sane and do such things though. We always say when someone does something bad 'he's insane' distancing yourself from him or her. But now this man is pronounced as sane as you and I are.

Earn, that case about Michel Theroux (right? I'm terrible with names) is indeed weird. You're renting prison space from us already, I don't see why you can't rent a 'room' here for her.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

One of the reasons the first team gave for their decision was that he was using words that he had made up himself.

The team just didn't recognize those words, so they decided they were made up. They didn't check places like the Internet to see whether anyone else were using the same words.

Which they were - those were words commonly used in the circles where he was joining discussions.

That... seems an awefully poor reason to decide someone's psychotic. A lot of people that I know, myself included, sometimes use made-up words that you won't even find on the internet. I hope the other reasons in their report were more convincing, then. But I'm glad there was a second report.

For a case here where a guy broke into a childern day care and started slashing kids in their cots, the psychological reports have just finished, unless the defense wants another one. First report indicated he was not mentally accountable for his actions because he talked to his sandwiches. Except he only appeared to be doing that when he knew somebody was watching. The current report holds him accountable because while he has had mental problems before, he scouted and planned his attack and even did a test run on a old lady days before he went to the day care. So the trial will go ahead. But it all makes me wonder how easy it seems to mislead psychology experts who are tasked with finding out whether mass-murderers are sane and accountable.

Originally Posted by Mari

Earn, that case about Michel Theroux (right? I'm terrible with names) is indeed weird. You're renting prison space from us already, I don't see why you can't rent a 'room' here for her.

Michelle Martin. It's not so much we can't send her over to you -although I believe prisoners must agree for the transfer- but because she has the right under law to apply for a early release as soon as one third of her sentence has been served. Ironically she's made use of this law before. This time she's making use of a loophole since technically she has no right to this appeal because she's a recidivist, but because she was convicted by two different courts that somehow doesn't apply. Her appeal has been denied for years on account of finding no one willing to house her. Until now, a convent of nuns are willing to take her and so -despite the uproar- effectively getting her out of prison. The Belgian Church isn't exactly succesful in making itself popular these days, I bet they wonder why.

And to think that at time of her trial, everybody was boasting she and her husband would never ever never get out. Hah, how stupid were we.

But the saddest bit of it all was that the wife of Fourniret, a French serial killer, went to the police because she got frightened by the long prison-time Martin got as accomplice/partaker. Fourniret's wife was in the exact same position. If Michelle hadn't been sentenced for 30 years, the other woman would never have come forward, Fourniret would not have been caught and several murders of women and girls would never have been solved. But what kind of message does it give to criminals now, knowing that after such a terrible crime as Martin did, you still barely have to do half your time?

[Mari]

Wonder where I got the name Theroux...

Yeah, it's a bad message not only to criminals, but also to the family and friends of the victims. In our laws there's often too much consideration for the poor criminal who had a terrible youth (that's the first thing the media always do: come up with all sorts of details of the criminals' pasts, isn't it? Aside from the 'did you see this coming?'-question of course) and not enough consideration for the people who have to live with the consequences, whatever they may have been.

[Earniel]

Theroux is very close to the name of her husband, Dutroux. I'm guessing that might be it. Martin's her maiden name since she devorced him after the trial.

Rehabilitation of criminals is a worthy cause, though. (I've heard that in the Norwegian system 21 years is the maximum punishment for everything, simply to always allow room for rehabilitation.) And something I don't think is incorporated enough in our justice system. Although equally, sometimes it just doesn't work, some people can never be let loose in society. But if our early-release-system was aimed at rehabilitation, that would have been better to bear, but it is not, it is to free up prison place. Prison sentences under three year just aren't executed anymore either, just for that reason, prompting judges to sentence people to three years and a DAY so they will see the inside of the prison, even for a short while. You can't expect a justice system to be effective that way.

I think indeed consideration for family and friends of victims is sometimes lacking in the system too. They're not considered an actual victim and therefore often have to jump through quite a bit of legal hoops to be able to access the legal files. Now, I don't think family members of victims should get an ultimate say in whether a criminal can get free early, like our panicked politicians are now shouting (I expect more badly constructed laws for what the politicians think will soothe the populace in the future), but the right of family members and friends to be included in the process shouldn't be ignored. Right now the focus is too much on the rights of the purpetrator, the victim is dead anyway so they and the people they left behind no longer really matter.

[Mari]

No no, I know the name of Marc Dutroux. I every consciously saw the news footage when his heinous crimes were first uncovered. I also remember he escaped a couple of years back. Must have picked Theroux up somewhere else.

That's just insane! I don't know what crimes get around 3 years in prison but to not let people sit their punishments out is hardly going to encourage people not to do stuff. I'm all for rehabilitation, but this is just letting people get away with things.

The last couple of years the Netherlands has adopted laws that give direct relatives of victims or victims themselves the right to tell in court how the crime has affected them. Recently the things that are allowed to be said has been expanded, so now you can also tell about emotional distress etc.