Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship?

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

This is a spin off from another thread, and may have been done before, but I think it's worth a look.

Gandalf is a Wizard, Legolas an Elf-Lord and the son of a King, Boromir, son of the Steward and a great man of Gondor, Gimli, a valiant Dwarf and relative to royalty, Aragorn, heir to both Gondor and Arnor and quite useful on a journey, and Frodo and Sam.

Frodo, for the Ring he can resist better, and is willing, and Master Samwise, his faithful servant and friend.

So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?

[Nurvingiel]

Legolas isn't an Elf-lord, but that's a minor detail, he was obviously a good addition. However, why not send Glorfindel instead of Legolas?

Merry and Pippin were added because Gandalf said that friendship is what would get them through dark times, or something like that. He must have seen some other wisdom as well - they were the catalyst that got the Ents to Isengard. Without this event, the Rohirrim might have fallen at Helm's deep, and there wouldn't have been those reinforcements for the Pelennor fields.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Glorfindel_of_Gondolin
This is a spin off from another thread, and may have been done before, but I think it's worth a look.

Gandalf is a Wizard, Legolas an Elf-Lord and the son of a King, Boromir, son of the Steward and a great man of Gondor, Gimli, a valiant Dwarf and relative to royalty, Aragorn, heir to both Gondor and Arnor and quite useful on a journey, and Frodo and Sam.

Frodo, for the Ring he can resist better, and is willing, and Master Samwise, his faithful servant and friend.

So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?

You're forgetting: Pippin ended up as the Thain of the Shire and Merry as the Master of Buckland... they must have been in line to inherit those lofty positions from birth!

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by Valandil
You're forgetting: Pippin ended up as the Thain of the Shire and Merry as the Master of Buckland... they must have been in line to inherit those lofty positions from birth!

I agree. They were in line to inherit important positions in the Shire, which would give them status enough to be part of the Fellowship.

Also, this tale is primarily told from the hobbits' point of view. They are used as the observers of the events of Middle Earth and the War of the Ring. If you read the narrative carefully, you will note that you rarely see things from Gimli's point of view or Aragorn's or Legolas'. The hobbits are the focal point -- we see the world through their eyes. Tolkien felt that this was important, so, as the action became more fragmented, he had hobbit observers in each location that critical actions and decisions were taking place. This decision made a tale of truly epic proportions more cohesive.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Legolas isn't an Elf-lord.

Merry and Pippin were added because Gandalf said that friendship is what would get them through dark times, or something like that. He must have seen some other wisdom as well

Legolas was son of the King of Mirkwood Realm. Is it not enough to be called 'the lord'?

About Gandalfs wisdom... it was not about the friendship to aid Frodo to get through his quest. It was about the Ring.
Indeed, a card hidden in his sleeve has turned in a trump ace! Hobbits, unknown for most of the world, the people, which, practically, unreceptive to destroying effect of the Ring, deprived aspirations to world supremacy, fair, ingenuous and devoted, people to whom it’s so easy “to hang noodles on ears”, and most important, people which nobody accepts seriously.
The Dwarves, the Elves, and especially the Men can’t be allowed to get close to the Ring. Fight would begin at once! And while the Ring stays in the hobbit’s hands , all pleased and nobody quarrels.
Who would become the Ringbearer if Frodo would been lost in Moria or in any other dangerous places? It seems to me - Sam... King has died, but the show must go on! And exactly for this reason there are 3 spare hobbits in group, instead of 3 pumped-up warriors. While at least one hobbit remain - the mission is alive.

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by Olmer
Legolas was son of the King of Mirkwood Realm. Is it not enough to be called 'the lord'?

that would make him an elf-prince then

I think Merry and Pippin were in the fellowship because, like Nurvingiel, and really Gandalf said, friendship is better in dark times then warriors. They provide emotional support

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

I dunno, I recon that friendship aint much help when and orc is eating you.

Glorfindel, or any other Elves would have been a better choice.

From a purely tactical standpoint, I would rather a few more elves and rangers.

[Nurvingiel]

Ah, but they planned to rely more on stealth than strength of arms. If they were at the point where orcs were eating them, they'd be nearly finished anyway. (The times that this did happen they managed to eke out of it.)

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Ah, but they planned to rely more on stealth than strength of arms.

Absolutely right!
Gandalf clearly understand, that only small and quick hobbits, and not a crowd of destroyers with axes and bows , can filter in the heart of Mordor and therefore his plan was that after Lorien to sent the hobbits with the Ring to Orodruin, and with the rest of company to go down on the river to Gondor with shouts: "Yoo-hoo, Sauron, we are here! Catch , if you can! "

[hectorberlioz]

Myself, I was hoping that it would be Glorfinel who would be part of the fellowship, instead of Legolas. I still would prefer it, but its Tolkien's world, and he did it perfect. and he left us some juicy bits to argue about.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Keepping them in may have been PARTLY inertia, saving prior work. Recall that JRRT had begun writing LotR mostly as a tale of hobbit, and his first draft went as far as to a point between bree and Rivendell with an hobbit amin cast, including Trotter the Hobbit ranger, rather than the later Strider the Dunadan ranger.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Olmer
Absolutely right!
Gandalf clearly understand, that only small and quick hobbits, and not a crowd of destroyers with axes and bows , can filter in the heart of Mordor and therefore his plan was that after Lorien to sent the hobbits with the Ring to Orodruin, and with the rest of company to go down on the river to Gondor with shouts: "Yoo-hoo, Sauron, we are here! Catch , if you can! "

Actually, we don't know what Gandalf's plan was, because Aragorn said at Amon Hen (or was the right before they entered Lorien) that he did not know what he had planned.

[hectorberlioz]

Well, I am quite sure that Gandalf had been worrying and planning for a very long long time...he wouldnt waste his time I'm sure.
But even when the time came, plans had to be changed due to the unexpectability of the enemy's plans, and because of Saruman.
Gandalf did have things planned out overall, but exactly how to carry them out was a heat of the moment thing.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Glorfindel_of_Gondolin
So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?

Let us see what the text says:

`That is because you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead,' said Elrond.
`Neither does Frodo,' said Gandalf, unexpectedly supporting Pippin. 'Nor do any of us see clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'

Gandalf clearly states here that friendship is more valuable than strength and wisdom on this quest. I think Gandalf was fully aware of the excellent qualities of both Merry and Pippin. There was no one else who had learned more about Hobbits than him. He knew that they would be loyal, and brave, and that their presence would ease the burden for Frodo. What's more important, I also think he knew that the Hobbits would be less subject to the lure of the Ring. Would a powerful Elf like Glorfindel, for all his wisdom, manage to resist the temptation? We don't know.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Artanis


Gandalf clearly states here that friendship is more valuable than strength and wisdom on this quest.

I think Gandalf was fully aware of the excellent qualities of both Merry and Pippin.

Gandalf was an old manipulator and his old Valinor's friend Saruman knew him better if he was saying"When his tools have done their task he drops them" (LOTR. BOOK VI ,chapt. VIII)
Friendship, o yes, as long as it serves the purpose, he could explain the decision to take worthless (if not a burden) on such perilous road hobbits by the power of friendship.

About hobbits excellent qualities I already said before. For sure they would be loyal and brave and ease Frodo's burden and even take it on themselves if by some unforseen accident Frodo will get out of the quest. And , as I said , their important qualities was their LONG RESISTANCE to the Ring and small size.

Glorfindel (or Legolas) with all their luck would never pass Mordor border, the alarm which was set on elves would make everybody aware of their presence. So the remaining party of Gandalf himself and the Dunedain will stick out like a sore thumbs in company of hobbits and, possibly, dwarf.

Originally posted by Nurvingiel Actually, we don't know what Gandalf's plan was...

Yes, we do.

" We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then -" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)... he is wisely getting silent about an inevitable split of the Fellowship.

[Valandil]

Olmer, it's become quite apparent (from this thread and the chapter discussion threads underway) that you either have a different take on the story than most of us, or that you have a twisted sense of humor - and just enjoy stringing us along. Either one of those is OK... though you'll certainly find that many will disagree with you. I hope that will never make you feel unwelcome or that any will get overtly hostile in their frustration as they respond to you.

As I see it (assuming the former is true - a 'different take') - correct me if I'm wrong - your 'interpretation' or 'application' of the story is to not take what Tolkien writes at face value. Is that so? So that, for instance - even when he depicts Gandalf and the Elves as benevolent to all... you see them as more self-serving... and just making use of the other 'free peoples' to help them achieve their own ends? That the perceived benevolence was just because the source writings were of hobbit origin and that they 'bought into' what Gandalf and the Elves were selling?

I guess it can come off as a rather 'cynical' view, but it may indeed be an acceptable way to interpret the story. I rather doubt it was what Tolkien had in mind... but hey, to each his own, right? And - I guess the cynicism fits right into our world as it is today. Also - it helps fill in certain parts of the story - to see Gandalf and the Elves as a bit less noble than they might want to appear. Still, as I say, I disagree... but still welcome your opinions and insights - and look forward to further discussion on the various matters that will arise from our differing viewpoints.

So... welcome still, you-with-whom-many-of-us-disagree (there must be an Entish word for that)! Have you 'checked in' at the 'Official Welcome Thread' for new members in General Messages yet? Also... not meaning to either pry or insult - but you write like some speak English who are from Eastern Europe - a Russian friend in particular. Are you of Russian extraction... or some other place thereabouts? Or is that just how you write? (my Russian pal was a suspicious one too... your name 'Vladimir' by any chance? )

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Olmer, it's become quite apparent...that you have a twisted sense of humor - and just enjoy stringing us along.
I hope that will never make you feel unwelcome ...

As I see it.. your 'interpretation' or 'application' of the story is to not take what Tolkien writes at face value.

That the perceived benevolence was just because the source writings were of hobbit origin and that they 'bought into' what Gandalf and the Elves were selling?

I guess it can come off as a rather 'cynical' view, but it may

. Also - it helps fill in certain parts of the story - to see Gandalf and the Elves as a bit less noble than they might want to appear. .

So... welcome still, you-with-whom-many-of-us-disagree (there must be an Entish word for that)! Have you 'checked in' at the 'Official Welcome Thread' for new members in General Messages yet? Also... not meaning to either pry or insult - but you write like some speak English who are from Eastern Europe - a Russian friend in particular. Are you of Russian extraction... or some other place thereabouts? Or is that just how you write? (my Russian pal was a suspicious one too... your name 'Vladimir' by any chance? )

No, I'm quite serious.
Of course many will disagree with me and probably will label as "cynic", but I don't care as long as my opponents could express their point of view logically and with quotes to back up. I think this way allowed us to learn more about Tolkien work( not mention to make you read each sentence in the book more carefully and not just once. )
I began just like an ordinary Tolkien's fan (and I still am) till on one forum I read posting which was implying that, as you say, "Gandalf and the Elves as a bit less noble than they might want to appear". It was very logical and seemed to me undermined all my believes. It was so contradictory , so questionable that I wanted to find inconsistency in his postulates... I felt like an advocate who is trying to prove that his client was falsely accused.
Instead I found a new dimension of the book, a new meanings in the very sentences of Professor's work. A whole new world... in which previous J.R.R.T.contradictions seems not so adverse and loose pieces were falling in place.
And this is when I really got hooked on Tolkien .

You got me right to the tee. My point of view is as the whole story seen by dwarf or Gondorian.

An the last. Yes, English is not my native language.
Yes, I am from Eastern Europe, but not Russian, even if I quite familiar with Russians, and my name is not Vladimir.

Ask your russian friend was it my nick 'Olmer' which affirmed his suspitions?
Olmer is a king without kingdom from russian trilogy about hobbits adventure 500 years later.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
An the last. Yes, English is not my native language.
Yes, I am from Eastern Europe, but not Russian, even if I quite familiar with Russians and my name is not Vladimir.

Ask your russian friend was it my nick 'Olmer' which affirmed his suspitions?
Olmer is a king without kingdon from a russian trilogy about hobbits adventure 500 years later.

Oh - I haven't seen that friend in awhile... almost two years maybe. It's just that your wording reminded me of him... I could picture HIM talking as I read your words.

[Dances with the Eagles]

I love Merry and Pippin. In fact, I thought Pippin got ripped off a little in the films.

It's been a little while since I have read the books and the movies are starting to mesh in. So feel free to correct me if I get jumbled.

One of the most touching things about Tolkein's writing for me is that he isn't finished at the "happily ever after" moment. He has a way of making me ache with a sense that when I turn the final page and close the back cover that there is life still moving in that world. That never fails to make me walk away with more of an awareness for the life around me in the "real world". It is a precious gift. These two little hobbits are so strongly a piece of that. After all of the hugeness of the war of the ring and the adventures and perils of the quest, Tolkein comes home to the shire. Merry and Pippin are the key leaders of the rise against the evil there. There is some whisper in me that suggests there was a smaller goal than I might initially guess at. I look at the story and see the destruction of the ring as the goal. Perhaps-- and I say with emphasis- perhaps, the entire quest was for smaller reasons. Perhaps the entire journey was to make Aragorn a true King, or to lead Eowyn to Faramir, or simply to raise two small, silly little hobbits into warriors that the shire might be saved. Frodo says before he leaves middle earth that often someone must loose something so that it might be saved for others (Sorry- I don't have my books in front of me right now so I can't give a better reference than that)

Now to link that suggestion to my initial remark of Tolkein's talent of make the life in stories so real: No character is empty. Even Grishnak is made with some depth. No character is empty. I am sure it is against every rule in the book to have as many names and characters as Tolkein done!!! But there is something important in every name. Each name has a life behind it, and that truth is honored. That depth of character is a contributing factor in that sense of realness that can make all my taste buds wake up! It's like eating a REALLY good dessert- sometimes the best part is that the aftertaste lingers and it's yummy.

So that was probably a very broad response to "why Merry and Pippin?"

Here is another brief suggestion- not sure if it belongs in this forum, but I’ll toss it out there anyway: There seems to be an unspoken knowledge that throughout the quest, Illuvatar/Eru is still the maestro. Perhaps here we see the working of small things for the sake of accomplishing far more than possible. From a biblical point of view it echoes verses such as "And we know that God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love God to those who are called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28) and "...according to His purpose who works all things after the council of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). If Merry had not gone, who would have been with Eowyn on the Fields of the Pelanor? If pippin had not come, who would have been rash enough to steal the palantir stone from Gandalf? If he had not looked into the stone, Sauron might not have been distracted enough to overlook 2 small hobbits wandering in his borders. "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, The base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not that He might nullify the things that are that no man may boast before God" (1 Corinthians 1:27-29). True humility is a mighty tool in the hand of a Good creator.- that is a biblical spin :-)

Besides.... Pippin is the one who notices that the eagles coming

wow.... that turned out to be pretty darn long....

[Count Comfect]

I have to say that I don't think that size or Ring resistance can have played much of a part: dwarves work just as well for either task (remember, the dwarf rings had no power over them save for a slight increase in greed) and can fight a lot better if that were to be needed.