Other Worlds Than These (Discussion Thread)

[feawen]

i have a question about the green twins.
the books are on my reading list but ive not got around to reading them yet.
if the king and queen are the mum and dad everyone, everyone is each others brother and sister so there is never a new generation cause that would mean brothers and sisters getting together. is this right? no one dies and do the king and queen just keep having kids are have they stopped now? does everyone just stay young and get old by experience. if the king and queen keep having children and no one dies or gets old would they not run out of space?
oh Anahera will have issues with this idea. ive come up with some pretty strict ideas for the Nolow!

[Varnafindë]

And the book doesn't go as far as for those questions to come up, so Midge will have to handle them on her own

I should try to come up with a post for Baru soon, one where she goes on to the next morning and meets with the shepherdess. Sorry it hasn't happened yet ...

[feawen]

thats cool! im just having anahera and elspeth silently bonding at the moment! it was just easier to have them together at the moment while they await time to catch up!

[Midge]

Originally Posted by feawen

i have a question about the green twins.
the books are on my reading list but ive not got around to reading them yet.

Well, I don't want to impose things that Lewis really didn't mean. I'm trying to keep them as close to the "real" Perelandra as possible. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can, though.

if the king and queen are the mum and dad everyone, everyone is each others brother and sister so there is never a new generation cause that would mean brothers and sisters getting together. is this right?

This would not be incest - their bodies are not like ours. They have perfect bodies because sin has never entered their world and we on Earth (and in Middle-Earth) have corrupted or "broken" bodies due to sin.

Perelandrians do not have defects that can be magnified by a small gene pool. The children of children will be just as perfect as the King and Queen are. If you remember from the Bible, in the early times just after creation, there are several examples of siblings marrying (i.e., Abraham and Sarah were half-siblings, and after them, Jacob married both of his first cousins).

For the record, Perelandrians have never even considered the existence of polygamy.

no one dies and do the king and queen just keep having kids are have they stopped now? does everyone just stay young and get old by experience?

I'm quite sure that Lewis based Perelandra on an unfallen Earth. Basically Perelandra is their own garden of Eden. They inhabit uncorrupted bodies, so they don't age, and (I'd have to consult a theologian for this next part) I guess on that same note they don't die. In that way, they are similar to Elves.

Though their bodies will not age or get sick or die naturally, I do assume they are not invincible and can be harmed or killed (though I hope that doesn't happen).

if the king and queen keep having children and no one dies or gets old would they not run out of space?

At the end of the book Perelandra, the King and Queen were given a command to fill Perelandra with their sons and daughters. After only a few hundred years, they are nowhere near capacity. I would say there are maybe a thousand or a little less people on the whole planet (based on the Queen having multiple children at once for some of her pregnancies, like Lur and Lantura) and that only in recent years have some of the children been marrying and having children (which, as discussed earlier, is not incest).

[feawen]

thank you very much that was very informative. i think i understand it all a bit better now. i think i need to read these books. i read the narian books once, maybe ill get on with these books better!
i feel better equip when elsp and anahera meet the twins!

[Midge]

Yes, feel free to have Elspeth and Anahera interpret Lur and Lantura's customs however you wish.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Midge

I wondered what I was going to do about the whole meat-eating thing. I'm glad there was a happy medium for me.

I wondered about that too. So I had Indigo order something (fish and salad) where they could have gone with the vegetarian option if they wanted. I think you solved the conundrum quite elegantly.

[Midge]

Well, thank you. Another problem I hadn't thought of until you mentioned Indigo's money problem: Lur and Lantie will need something to trade - they can't get along for long without money and I don't want them to mooch off Indigo indefinitely.

There are several problems with this:
1. They don't know what money is. In Perelandra, they don't have WANT, so they have no need of money.
2. Anything they're good at that might make them money will have to be discovered by someone other than them. Both would be too humble or just plain not aware that they have something others need or want.

Do you have any ideas for this?

[feawen]

im having issues with this too.
elspeth can sell her sheep and things for a bit of money. anahera just has her winter cloths. i think we have decided the weather in middle earth is warm at the moment. so i guess anahera will need new cloths.
oh i can have elspeth play dress up with anahera!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Midge

Well, thank you. Another problem I hadn't thought of until you mentioned Indigo's money problem: Lur and Lantie will need something to trade - they can't get along for long without money and I don't want them to mooch off Indigo indefinitely.

Yeah, I've been thinking on it for a while since Lur suggested they'd stay with Indigo to learn as to Indigo it would automatically pose the question how he's going to pay for it all. (Hence it took a while for me to reply, I needed to work out how Indigo would react.)

Now, I've already made Indigo a reasonably well-off Hobbit, so for short-term this wouldn't be much of a problem. He'd be generous and hospitable enough to foot the bill for a while, but I'd like to make it realistic enough that his funds are not bottomless. Paying for three will eventually be a drain. (Funny how money often isn't thought of in fantasy books, people always have enough money to buy stuff and stay in inns, for some reason. )

But indeed, as the twins won't be actively looking for a way back home and intend to stay a while, other plans must be made. It makes sense that they wouldn't know about money, but Indigo can at least explain that. And if they start talking about making money in earnest, it makes sense that Indigo would inquire about their skills to see if anything worthwhile is in there. The trouble would be finding something that the twins could do well and that other people would pay for. If I think of everything you've written about Perelandra, than a lot of household skills and the like aren't necessary there so the twins wouldn't know how to weave or clean for instance. That rules out quite a number of things.

But that needn't be an issue. Because as soon as it becomes known that Lur and Lantura's parents are King and Queen of Perelandra, that sort of rules out any handwork skills for them to earn money with. No one's going to suggest to a prince or princess (even if they go naked in their own land) to muck out stables or babysit kids to make money.

I suppose Indigo could suggest them in view of a long or permanent stay, to go elsewhere, somewhere where a richer mecenas-sort of type can be found that won't mind adding two people to their retainer. Minas Tirith seems an obvious place. If not in the King's household then perhaps one of the noblemen might be interested in taking two wards in home, especially if they're rather strange. Not as a freakshow, mind, rather as something special that would add to his prestige. Sort of like how nobility in the past would house and feed artists, astronomers or just visiting ambassadors to show that they could. Heck, housing a pair of royal siblings from some far and foreign land where people are green, ought to be quite something special. In Minas Tirth I doubt they'd have to wonder how to pay for food and lodging even for long term. And they could learn a lot more there. Many nobles have private libraries, and we know the Library of Minas Tirith exists and is extensive from LoTR. Indigo would not think this a bad future if he has to decide what he think best for the twins.

All in all, I think the latter may not be such a bad idea to pursue since we will have to keep in mind where we eventually would want to have our characters go. I reckon we will want them to go to Minas Tirith since that's where the rest of the character are going and we will want to meet up with them at some point. Unless the others come to the inn first and invite our characters along. So we probably shouldn't bother looking into something the twins can use to earn money permanently in the little Gondorean village we're in now.

[Midge]

Yes, that makes sense. I am not opposed to having their talents be related to the fact that their bodies are uncorrupted, either. For instance, if it turns out that Lur is literally the fastest runner in all of Gondor (and how they found this out could be an interesting story) or that Lantie has a beautiful singing voice, I would be fine with that being how they "earned" a living, too.

Also - and this might be a stretch - they may have some sort of mastery over animals. Obviously not as strong as if they were in Perelandra, but recall in That Hideous Strength that Ransom, after having been in Perelandra for a year, has the ability to tame a bear (and keep him in his house) and has made such friends with the mice that they come to eat up the crumbs he drops, but do not make a nuisance.

There's that possibility too...

Also - I think the time has come for Indigo to explain the concept of Money and Trade to the twins. If the direction we want to take them is finding them something to do, then they need to figure out why they have to make a living first.

Also also - Perelandra is a land of plenty. The concept of not having something one used to have or "running out", I think, would be foreign to them.

[Earniel]

Running very fast or singing would be useful skills to make a living with, I reckon. However, even with perfect bodies, you will have to give the skill some grounding. I mean, Lur is going to have to have done some training to be able to run fast. That he's faster than anyone else, that could be a sign of him coming from Perelandra, but even there I assume a skill has to be used and built up. Same for Lantura, if she's able to sing very well, she's still going to have to have learned songs to sing and maybe even know how to read notes, that sort of thing.

I'm a bit more dubious about the mastery over animals, mainly because the animals themselves in Middle-earth would be different from those of Perelandra and not quite as cooperative. But I presume tame animals may respond better to the twins as most of Perelandran animals are sort of more tame then wild? So they might indeed be so good with farm animals that it's noticable.

If you want Indigo to talk about money, you're going to have to give him some hook. He has hinted at his funds being limited, but if the twins won't inquire deeper into it, Indigo's not going to come out on his own and say that yeah, he's paying for the food and rooms for the twins and yeah, he won't be able to keep it up for very long. That would be rude, right now he sees them as his guests.

[Midge]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Running very fast or singing would be useful skills to make a living with, I reckon. However, even with perfect bodies, you will have to give the skill some grounding. I mean, Lur is going to have to have done some training to be able to run fast. That he's faster than anyone else, that could be a sign of him coming from Perelandra, but even there I assume a skill has to be used and built up. Same for Lantura, if she's able to sing very well, she's still going to have to have learned songs to sing and maybe even know how to read notes, that sort of thing.

I tried to hint a little at this in my introduction to the twins. When they reach the floating island, Lur takes off running and has a race with a beast because that is what he enjoys doing when he's excited (which, as you can imagine, happens quite regularly in Perelandra). Lantie dances, and singing and dancing ofttimes go together. Of course, she won't know the notes to anything, but that would be something she could learn.

I'm a bit more dubious about the mastery over animals, mainly because the animals themselves in Middle-earth would be different from those of Perelandra and not quite as cooperative. But I presume tame animals may respond better to the twins as most of Perelandran animals are sort of more tame then wild? So they might indeed be so good with farm animals that it's noticable.

Yeah, this one was a little more of a stretch. I was basing the animal thing off the fact that Ransom, who only was in Perelandra for a year, was able to tame some usually quite wild Earth animals (bears, mice, etc.). Surely the twins, who've lived their whole lives in Perelandra, would have some sort of sway over Middle-Earth animals (maybe not Wargs...). I figured it would be perhaps a farmer who heard of them and wants them to tame his new horse or mule or whatever. Kind of menial, but definitely unique, and if someone who, like you were saying, wants to take in an artist, this would definitely be an interesting option.

If you want Indigo to talk about money, you're going to have to give him some hook. He has hinted at his funds being limited, but if the twins won't inquire deeper into it, Indigo's not going to come out on his own and say that yeah, he's paying for the food and rooms for the twins and yeah, he won't be able to keep it up for very long. That would be rude, right now he sees them as his guests.

I've had them ask him what money is to start with. In Perelandra, not only is there abundantly plenty for everyone, but people give of themselves freely. They see themselves as useful for each other, and everyone has a right to everyone else. No one would refuse a request for a favor.

When Lur and Lantie understand what money is and that they have been given much hospitality by Indigo, they will immediately have the urge to return the favor (it will be more akin to an instinct, instead of an obligation). They are not familiar with the feeling of selfishness, but only charity. They are naive, especially about the things which are different from their world, but they also are intelligent. They will come up with this conclusion based on logic and the customs of their own world. He shouldn't have to say anything about himself personally not having enough to sustain them. All he must do is explain that there is not plenty of money for everyone to have as much as he likes whenever he likes (because that is what Lur and Lantie assume at the moment).

[feawen]

i think anahera needs a hobbit to explain money to her she may understand it better then!

[Varnafindë]

I'm sorry, feawen, that I haven't posted anything yet!
I'm planning a post where Baru sees Elspeth go to her sheep, then has dinner with Rivailen (with some reason why they're not talking much, if I can find one ...), and then gets up and about the next morning and meets Elspeth and talks to her.

But it's taking me far too much time to actually get anything written these days ...

[Midge]

Maybe someone has a sore throat...

[feawen]

never mind! i know real life gets in the way!

[Earniel]

Or they've got too much to think about and process to talk during dinner. It was quite an eventful day after all.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Or they've got too much to think about and process to talk during dinner. It was quite an eventful day after all.

I've been thinking about something along those lines - it would be realistic.

They had meant to talk over dinner and process the events together - but then rather a lot of new events occured after they made that decision. And now that they're both going to Minas Tirith, there will be time for more talking later.

-----------------------------------

THERE! Finally!!!

feawen, I deliberately didn't say whether Elspeth was coming from the inn or going into it, so that's up to you. And Baru hasn't heard her name - I read through the thread to check.

I guess I can do some modding later and join these two posts - but now you need to see that there is a new one.

Done

[Midge]

Heyyy... So. Now that we're finally kind of catching up with the time and everything, do you want to finish anything else before Aerin and Nightshade show up?