LoTR Discussion project; Book II Chapters 9 and 10

[BeardofPants]

Chapter IX: The Great River


Image courtesy of Karen Fonstad's "The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-Earth".

In this chapter, the Fellowship have just left Lothlorien. They initially travel through woodlands, journeying down the river; a harsh decision still to be decided, with regards to whether or not to travel East or West. There is a sense of dawdling, of oppression, of fear. The Fellowship appears to have no desire to hasten either the journey, or the decision to be made. However, Aragorn has a fear of time pressing.

The first two days out of Lothlorien are repetitive. The dull grey hours passing without event.

On the Third day, the landscape changes. The trees thin out, and fail … On the Eastern bank lies the Brown Lands, which lie between Mirkwood and Emyn Muil. There is no last vestige of grass: “No living blade of green”.

What was the Cause of this wasteland?

The landscape changes on the western bank as well. The trees have disappeared, to be replaced by flat, green plains. Instead of trees, there are great forests of reeds, blocking the view of the plains. There is a sense of exposure on the Eastern Bank, and hidden eyes on the Western Bank. To add to the Fellowship’s anxiety, there is no sign of life – except for birds, including Black Swans.

Are the Black Swans messengers for Sauron?

Originally Posted by Frodo

“How wide and empty and mournful all this country looks! … I always imagined that as one journeyed south it got warmer and merrier, until winter was left behind for ever.”

Geography:

Originally Posted by Aragorn

“…not above sixty leagues, I guess, south of the Southfarthing away in your Shire, hundreds of long miles yonder. You are looking now south-west across the north plains of the Riddermark, Rohan the land of the Horselords….”

Is the Great River a frontier of War? A boundary, or division, both physically, and metaphorically?

Over the next day or two, driven by the sense of exposure, and oppression, there is a hastening of the journey on the River Anduin. Fear is repetitively expressed in conjunction to a growth of insecurity as the Fellowship draws closer to its perceived Journey’s End. At this stage, the scenery has shifted as well. The Great River has broadened, and become shallower, and there are long stoney beaches on the East, with gravel-shoals, bleak wolds and a chill air. On the West Bank, the rolling meads have become withered grass amidst fen and tussock. This scenery is in direct contrast to the scenery from Lothlorien (which Frodo recalls at this point, remembering the lawns, fountains, sun, and gentle rain of Lothlorien). Tolkien uses the descriptive scenery as well as the feelings of the Fellowship to create a separation from one Act, to another. From the calm relaxation of Lothlorien, the Fellowship has now transferred to the uncertainty of the Great River. The Stoney Banks hint at dangerous shoals hidden in the depths of the River. This is reflected by the fact that there is little speech and laughter. Each member of the Fellowship appears isolated in his own thoughts. Boromir’s pre-occupation with both Frodo and the Ring seems to have intensified at this stage; Pippin notes the strange gleam in Boromir’s eye, his obsession seemingly expressed by his need to frantically paddle to his boat to catch up with Frodo…

By the end of the Fourth Day from Lothlorien, we have the First Interlude between Sam and Frodo, on the Camp on the Eyot. Sam tells Frodo about the “log with eyes” on the river, and again, we have a sense of eyes being everywhere the Fellowship goes.

Is this “obsession” with eyes (and being watched) somehow tied into the symbolism of Sauron – the Great Eye?

Of course we find out from both Frodo and Aragorn that this has not been the first sighting of the little “footpad”. It is decided that the Fellowship will now keep watch at nights.

By the Fifth day, the company are on their guard, paddling for long spells, journeying mostly by night, and resting during the day – lying hidden. The days pass by without event… until the Seventh day out from Lothlorien. The weather is still grim, grey, and overcast with the chill wind from east still haunting the Fellowship. But there is now a New Moon casting pools of faint light, yellow and pale green….

On the Eighth day: the shore-banks begin rising. The Fellowship has reached the Grey hill country of Emyn Muil. Deep brakes of thorn and sloe, brambles and creepers. There are Birds again in the sky. Hunting Eagles, far from the Mountains.

Are they the messengers of Sauron, or the work of Gollum? (This can probably be discussed in conjunction with the Black Swans mentioned earlier – also, interesting to tie into a discussion of how traditionally, the Evil (Morgoth et al) seldom has dominion of the Air (realm of Manwe).)

The appearance of the Hunting Eagle has made the Fellowship leery of travelling until it is fully dark. The Eighth Night is silent, and windless. The grey east wind that has until now dogged them, has faded away. It is unerringly quiet. Almost like the Calm before the Storm. For the first time, Aragorn, the Natural Leader of the Fellowship, is not familiar with this leg of the journey. It is to be a journey in the dark, through unfamiliar territory. Sam is appointed Watchman in the leading boat. Boromir counsels that this is Madness.

[BeardofPants]

Luckily for the Fellowship, Sam spots rocks peering up from the water, shaped like jagged teeth, and Aragorn admits that he may be out of his Reckoning. The teeth rising from the water are Foreshadowing the Events to come.

Originally Posted by Aragorn

I am out of my reckoning,” he said to Frodo. “I did not know that we had come so far : Anduin flows faster than I thought. Sarn Gebir must be close at hand already.”

The current works to carry them closer and closer to the Eastern Bank. The “teeth” give rise to orcs scurrying on the Eastern Bank, unleashing arrows upon the Fellowship, which luckily seem to miss… but not by much!

First inclination that the grey cloaks of Lorien may be working some kind of magic? Spurning the malice of the orcs?

A Great Dark Shape flies South from Mordor, and is shot down by Legolas, with his Great Bow, a gift from Galadriel. The Beast in the sky causes Frodo’s wound to ache. The winged creature – blacker than the pits in the night – is Felled.

Legolas’ Great Bow of Lorien appears to have saved them from the maws of this Great Beast. Would the company have fallen then and there without Galadriel’s gifts? To what degree did Galadriel fore-see the need for these gifts?

After escape from the confrontation with the Orcs on the East Bank, the Fellowship travelled back upstream on the western bank to find a suitable landing spot. No camp was made, no fire was lit. They merely huddled in the boats, contemplating the next leg of the journey, and speculating what the great black shape was.

Frodo is fearful of mentioning what the Great Black Shape is, but Boromir is eager to engage Frodo into conversation about it – why?

Originally Posted by Aragorn

“This night we must all be sleepless…”

At this point, we have the Second Interlude between Sam and Frodo, on the Problem on the Moon, and how it does not seem to accurately reflect the time spent in Lothlorien.

Originally Posted by Frodo

“And perhaps that was the way of it … In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don’t remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon : only stars by night and sun by day.”

Why is there no moon present in Caras Galadhon?

Originally Posted by Legolas

“For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow.”

What do you think is meant by this comment? (feel free to link to appropriate threads)

Frodo mentions Galadriel’s ring – and we have the issue of power. From whence does it come from?

Originally Posted by Aragorn

“Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.”

By the Ninth Day out from Lothlorien, the Company feels a change in the weather – it is warmer, wet. A fog rises, cloaking the Fellowship… hiding them from any eyes still remaining on the Eastern Bank.

After the events from the night before, is this a “lucky fog”?

At this point, Boromir pushes to abandon the boats and strike for Minas Tirith, pressing for a decision on Journey’s End. However, Aragorn speaks of the Ancient Way to Rauros foot: The North Stair – the high seat upon Amon Hen, made in the days of the Great Kings. Boromir is reluctant to pursue this path, but agrees when it is clear that Frodo will follow Aragorn.

It is decided that Aragorn and Legolas will scout ahead for a path to bear the Fellowship southwards. It is mentioned that there used to be a portage path following the Great River towards Sarn Gebir, and it is Aragorn’s plan to attempt to find it, as there were no roads built by the Long Dead Gondorion Kings, and the rapids are unpassable.

After two or three hours, Aragorn and Legolas return with good news.

Originally Posted by Aragorn

“All is well… There is a track, and it leads to a good landing that is still serviceable. The distance is not great : the head of the Rapids is but half a mile below us, and they are little more than a mile long. Not far beyond them the stream becomes clear and smooth again, though it runs swiftly. Our hardest task will be to get our boats and baggage to the old portage-way. We have found it, but it lies well back from the water-side here, and runs under the lee of a rock-wall, a furlong or more from the shore. We did not find where the northwards landing lies….”

Why was there no attempt by Boromir to molest Frodo for the Ring, or to persuade him to go with him to Minas Tirith? Or at the very least, to kidnap him?

The boats are transported in several journeys along the portage-way, along with their baggage. The boats are less heavy to carry than thought. Again, the presence of the elves is felt!

Discussion Point: What wood would they have been made out of? Construction?

The land is difficult to cross: it is a tumbled waste of grey limestone-boulders, and hidden holes, shored with weeds, and bushes, brambles, sheer dells, boggy pools, all sloping upwards, away from the river. The fog worked to block their view of the river to the left, but the company could still hear it. Eventually, the portage-way sloped back to a shallow pool edging the Anduin. There is to be no further passage on foot, as the shore beyond rose into a grey sheer cliff…

The short afternoon had passed when the Fellowship made camp. The cloudy dusk closing in on them. The camp was made, and a watch was kept. After spending the day transporting the boats, the Fellowship was too tired to attempt the Argonath by night. It is decided that they would tackle it during the day. It rained that night, but was otherwise uneventful.

The Tenth day sees the thinning of the fog. The Company kept close to western shore, and the steadily rising cliff-faces. It was still raining. At this point, the channel narrowed, and the water ran more swiftly, leading ever onwards, towards the Silent Wardens of a Kingdom Long Vanished. The Argonath.

“Tall and sheer and ominous they stood upon either side of the stream.”

The Pillars of Isildur and Anarion are passed by. There is a sense of sadness. The Pillars are powerful, threatening, a warning. It is interesting to note that even Boromir bowed as they passed through – the sky barely visible, it is so high up!

A King returning from Exile?

The day is a long one, and by the time the Company pass the Argonath, it is late afternoon. They arrive in the Long oval lake – the pale Nen Hithoel, which is fenced by steep grey hills, clad in trees. Upon the Southern end of the Lake, there were three peaks: Amon Lhaw (Hill of Hearing), Tol Brandir (isolated from Lhaw & Hen by the river which flowed around it), and Amon Hen (Hill of Sight). There are the Seats of the Great Kings on the Amon Lhaw, and Amon Hen, but no man or beast had set foot on Tol Brandir.

There is a short rest, before the Company hastened to reach the peaks by nightfall. The Tenth day of their journey over. The Last Stage of Quest before them – where a decision will have to be made for the next leg of their journey...

[BeardofPants]

Chapter X: The Breaking of the Fellowship.


Image courtesy of Karen Fonstad's "The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-Earth".

The chapter opens with Aragorn leading the Company down the right arm of the river towards the western side, underneath the Shadow of Tol Brandir. A green lawn runs at the feet of Amon Hen. The gentle slopes of the mountain are clad with trees, and a mountain spring feeds the lawn. The company made camp here at Parth Galen, and kept watch. It is during Frodo’s watch, that Aragorn breaks out of his restless sleep.

Originally Posted by Aragorn

“… a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep. It would be well to draw your sword.”

At this point, Frodo draws Sting, which glows faintly, indicating that there may be orcs on the banks of Amon Lhaw.

“The day came like fire and smoke…”

Low in the east, there are great black bars of cloud, with the sun glinting as it slowly rises. There are no signs of life, but for the birds circling the steep slopes of Tol Brandir.

After the company breaks their fast, Aragorn states that a decision must be made: Will the Company travel West to Gondor, or East to Mordor? He also states that there is little time to make a decision, as there may be orcs bearing towards them on Amon Hen. He also states that the choice must stay with the Ring Bearer.

Originally Posted by Frodo

“ I know that haste is needed, yet I cannot chose. The burden is heavy. Give me an hour longer, and I will speak. Let me be alone!”

As Frodo disappears into the trees at the foot of Amon Hen, Sam notices that Boromir watches as Frodo walks off alone to make his choice. It is not the first time that Sam shows his depth of perception, as will be seen shortly.

Frodo wanders aimlessly in the wood, and his feet lead him towards the slopes of the hill, coming across a path – the ruins of a road of long, long ago. He follows the cracked and worn path, split by roots of trees, until he reaches a grassy place, with rowan trees in its midst, a flat stone. Frodo sits upon the stone, staring east, listening to the voice of Rauros. He pondered all that he could remember of Gandalf’s words, but still comes no closer to making decision. His broodings are interrupted by a feeling of unfriendly eyes… but it was only Boromir, who wants to help Frodo make his decision, to persuade Frodo to turn West, towards Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by Frodo

“You are kind… But I do not think that any speech will help me. For I know what I should do, but I am afraid of doing it, Boromir : afraid.”

Frodo then goes on to state WHY he is afraid of Boromir’s counsel: that the warning in his heart counsels AGAINST taking the easy way; AGAINST refusal of the burden; AGAINST the trust in the strength and truth of Men. What if that strength should fail? What if the walls of Minas Tirith should tumble? Should we still then have hope, according to Boromir? IS there still hope?

Discussion point: what would have happened if the Company struck West instead of East? What makes this route the “easy” way?

Originally Posted by Frodo

“No hope while the Ring lasts.”

Boromir still doesn’t comprehend why the ring can’t be used for good – why the Men of Gondor cannot use it for their own means.

Originally Posted by Boromir

“The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!”

It is interesting to note that Boromir sees himself as a benevolent King, NOT as a Steward of Gondor. To what degree is the ring working on Boromir? On his resentment against Aragorn (as heir of Gondor)?

He continues to attempt to persuade Frodo to lend him the Ring, so that he may take up arms for Gondor. He counsels Frodo to use this chance to take rest and advice in Minas Tirith, THEN to make a decision.

Originally Posted by Frodo

“No! no! … The Council laid it upon me to bear it.”

To what extent is Frodo now reacting to the Ring? The idea of another using the Ring?

At this point, the Madness that had been simmering in Boromir, spilled forth in its entirety. His fair face becomes hideously changed, a raging fire in his eyes. In response, Frodo slips on the Ring in attempt to evade his would-be attacker, who was even now accusing him of being a miserable trickster and selling out to the Enemy. Cursing Frodo, and all halflings, Boromir falls, as if from his own curse… he begins crying, aware that a madness has overtaken him temporarily – the madness of the Ring. He calls for Frodo to come back – that the madness had passed – but Frodo was long gone…

Frodo runs away from Boromir, and soon comes upon the summit of Amon Hen. He espies a flat circle, paved with mighty flags, and surrounded with a crumbling battlement; and in the middle, set upon four carven pillars, was a high seat, reached by a stair of many steps. He sits upon the seat of Seeing – the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor. He looks towards the East…. North….West… South… Everywhere he looks he sees the signs of war. Orcs issuing from a thousand holes… strife between Men and Elves and Fell Beasts… land aflame… dark ominous clouds over Mordor… smoke billowing from Lorien. Ships of War from Harad, wolves being deployed from Isengard. It is apparent that the Power of the Dark Lord was upon the Land. All hope left Frodo. And he felt the Eye searching for him…

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Frodo

“Never! Never!”
“Verily I come to you!”

“Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!”

Frodo feels pinned between the two powers, but even as he became aware of them, he becomes just Frodo again, and takes off the ring. The dark shadow gropes, and passes out over him.

It mentions two powers warring – one is clearly Sauron … who is the other?

Originally Posted by Frodo

“I will do now what I must … This at least is plain : the evil of the Ring is already at work even in the Company, and the Ring must leave them before it does more harm. I will go alone. Some I cannot trust, and those I can trust are too dear to me : poor old Sam, and Merry and Pippin. Strider, too : his heart yearns for Minas Tirith, and he will be needed there, now Boromir has fallen into evil. I will go alone. At once.”

And so, Frodo drew the ring on, and set forth – hoping to hide his departure from his companions.

Whilst Frodo wrangled with his tough decision, the others remained at camp, speaking of other things but always they came back to Frodo. What would Frodo choose? What was taking him so long to reach a decision? Legolas wonders why they cannot cast a vote, and states that he would choose to journey to Minas Tirith, as would Gimli, but would chose not to abandon their Ring Bearer if the decision was to be to travel East into Mordor. Aragorn argues that it would not be feasible for ALL eight companions to traipse to Mordor, and suggests Himself, Sam and Gimli as companions to Frodo, counselling that Boromir should go to Minas Tirith with the others. And so it goes on, until Sam mentions that they’ve all got it wrong. That Minas Tirith isn’t right at all; that Frodo wouldn’t even be considering going West. It is as he apologises to Boromir, that the company notices that he’s missing…

Sam continues speculating that Frodo KNOWS which way he has to go – to Mordor, but he’s afraid, deathly terrified. He’s too terrified to start, AND he means to go it alone. It seems that of all Frodo’s companions, it is Sam that knows him best.

Aragorn states that Sam is likely right, and the remaining companions decide to call for Frodo, and in doing so, to hopefully come to a decision. At this point Boromir returns, sad and grim. Aragorn asks if Boromir has seen Frodo, and Boromir recounts what passed between the two companions, omitting how he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo.

It has been about an hour since Boromir last spoke to Frodo, and Frodo’s subsequent vanishing. The companions are worried that something may have come of Frodo. Aragorn attempts to arrange a search party in pairs, but Sam hares off in one direction and Merry & Pippin in another, all calling for Frodo in clear, high hobbit voices. Madness seems to have descended upon the company. Aragorn sends Boromir off to find and protect Merry and Pippin, whilst Aragorn goes after Sam. Aragorn overtakes Sam, and tracks Frodo to the top of Amon Hen. Sam can’t keep up, but uses his hobbit sense to determine where Frodo went.

Originally Posted by Sam

“Back to the boats, Sam, like lightning!”

Does anyone else get a fit of the giggles at this imagery? Was Tolkien gently ridiculing Sam?

Sam finally comes to the edge of the lawn of Parth Galen; espies a boat moving seemingly by itself down the bank. Sam runs after it, and throws himself toward the boat, missing, and almost drowning in the river. Frodo lugs Sam to the side of the boat, and returns to shore. He gets off the boat and argues with Sam that he must go alone. Sam in turn says that he’ll knock holes in all the boats first if Frodo won’t let him come.

Discussion Point: The development of Sam and Frodo’s relationship – is it the Ideal of Platonic Love?

Originally Posted by Frodo

“So all my plan is spoilt! … It is no good trying to escape you. But I’m glad, Sam. I cannot tell you how glad. Come along! It is plain that we were meant to go together. We will go, and may the others find a safe road! Strider will look after them. I don’t suppose we shall see them again.”

“Yet we may, Mr. Frodo. We may.”

Would Frodo have been able to make the journey without Sam? Without Sam’s optimism?

Frodo and Sam paddle off, toward the last stage of their Quest. They land on the southern slopes of Amon Lhaw, shoulder their packs, and set off, seeking a path that would take them to the grey hills of the Emyn Muil, and eventually, down in to the Land Of Shadow. Mordor.

[BeardofPants]

Okay, I'm done - have at it. Apologies for the lengthiness of it.

[Artanis]

Brilliant BoP!
I'm at work now, will have to respond later.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Frodo feels pinned between the two powers, but even as he became aware of them, he becomes just Frodo again, and takes off the ring. The dark shadow gropes, and passes out over him.

It mentions two powers warring – one is clearly Sauron … who is the other?

When one reads this passage it looks like the two powers are Sauron and the Ring. Later on though, we learn that Gandalf was also exercising his power at the very moment to prevent Sauron from finding Frodo.
So I would say that there were more than two powers at work there

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Discussion Point: The development of Sam and Frodo’s relationship – is it the Ideal of Platonic Love?

It is interesting that you bring up this point now. Indeed here Sam shows he is very attuned to Frodo's feelings and thoughts.
I think Sam's sentiments towards Frodo are clear. The way Sam holds Frodo's hand (both at Elrond's and when the finger is bitten off). Most revealing the moment when Shelob stings Frodo and JRR Tolkien comments that never in nature it is seen a fury more terrible than the one of a small creature with little teeths protecting the body of its fallen mate. Also the fact that Frodo had to leave from Gray Haven for Sam to be whole with Rosie.
I think the only thing that kept the relationship on a Platonic dimension is that Frodo did not reciprocate Sam quite in the same way. Frodo also grew to be fond of Sam but never quite as deeply

[Blackheart]

Ever examined the relationship between a british officer and his "batman"? You'll find an ideal model for Sam and Frodo's reationship.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro BoP

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

What was the Cause of this wasteland?

I'd say that it was due to Sauron sending orcs over there during the second age when he made War upon the elves of Eriador, but it's interesting that nothing's grown there since if that is the case.

Are the Black Swans messengers for Sauron?

I'd say that they were from Mirkwood. In TTT Anborn and Faramir speak of black squirrels of Mirkwood so it is possible that the black swans are from there aswell. And they aren't to far from Mirkwood so it is possible the Black Swans were fleeing the rearising of Dol Guldur.

Is the Great River a frontier of War? A boundary, or division, both physically, and metaphorically?

Well the Argonath was used as a border of Gondor. If it was a frontier for War then what would it be defending? I doubt it would be Gondor as the only evil dwellings in the North was Dol Guldur and Angmar. Yet Dol Guldur would be busy enough with the elves of Mirkwood and Lorien and Angmar with the realms of Arnor.

Is this “obsession” with eyes (and being watched) somehow tied into the symbolism of Sauron – the Great Eye?

I don't think so. Frodo had certainly seen eyes in Moria, and perhaps Sam had to. Since Weathertop he would have been more aware of his master and where he is, so perhaps he saw them looking back once but didn't say anything.

Are they the messengers of Sauron, or the work of Gollum? (This can probably be discussed in conjunction with the Black Swans mentioned earlier – also, interesting to tie into a discussion of how traditionally, the Evil (Morgoth et al) seldom has dominion of the Air (realm of Manwe).)

Even though we find out later that it is not evil I didn't think so when i first read LotR. I thought this because of Gandalf's tale in the Council of Elrond when he told of Gwarhir and his aid given to him.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

First inclination that the grey cloaks of Lorien may be working some kind of magic? Spurning the malice of the orcs?

Well it is surprising that the orcs could see them. The cloaks protected the Company from unfriendly eyes and as we will come to find out friendly eyes somtimes aswell, so it is a feat that even the night eyes of the orcs could see the Company.

Legolas’ Great Bow of Lorien appears to have saved them from the maws of this Great Beast. Would the company have fallen then and there without Galadriel’s gifts? To what degree did Galadriel fore-see the need for these gifts?

i don't think so. The cloaks of Galadriel would have probably shielded them from the eyes of even the fell beast from that high up, and that is if the Fell Beast was there regarding the Fellowship.

Frodo is fearful of mentioning what the Great Black Shape is, but Boromir is eager to engage Frodo into conversation about it – why?

Eager for information? I would say that the Ring was already tempting at him so he was trying to learn the mind of the Ring bearer. And it is strange that he did not recognise them for they had been seen in Gondor before.

Why is there no moon present in Caras Galadhon?

Probably the effect of Galadriels Ring. It helped to lose the efect of time so perhaps the Moon was effected with that.

Why was there no attempt by Boromir to molest Frodo for the Ring, or to persuade him to go with him to Minas Tirith? Or at the very least, to kidnap him?

Maybe he deemed the time not reay. Also Frodo was not alone as Gimli and the hobbits were still there.

[Blackheart]

The Brown Lands...

I've never been able to uncover any information about the exact cause of the blight, other than Sauron gets the blame for it. As a side note, the withering of the Brown Lands leads to the seperation of the Ents and the Entwives...

Anduin

It was a border for Gondor during much of the second age. A lot of battles were fought against the Easterlings & Variags , but mostly on the eastern side. Gondor straddled Anduin remember, in fact Osgiliath lies on both sides the Anduin. From what I can gather the Anduin was more of a northern border. The Easterlings didn't have to cross the Anduin to get to Osgiliath, but they did get squeezed into traversing the narrower region between the Anduin and the Mountains of Shadow...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Somewhere, UT, IIRC, the expanded explaination of of the Brown Lands is that they were the gardens of the the Entwives, and that Sauron destroyed them in the War of the Last Alliance to prevent the allied army from having their use during its march down the Aduin. Scorched Earch tactic to deny food to the enemy on the march.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Somewhere, UT, IIRC, the expanded explaination of of the Brown Lands is that they were the gardens of the the Entwives, and that Sauron destroyed them in the War of the Last Alliance to prevent the allied army from having their use during its march down the Aduin. Scorched Earch tactic to deny food to the enemy on the march.

Lefty, IIRC (and I could be mistaken), that may have been theorized by Michael Martinez in his essay on the Last Alliance. It certainly sounds quite plausible to me though.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Somewhere, UT, IIRC, the expanded explaination of of the Brown Lands is that they were the gardens of the the Entwives, and that Sauron destroyed them in the War of the Last Alliance to prevent the allied army from having their use during its march down the Aduin. Scorched Earch tactic to deny food to the enemy on the march.

i seem to remember the entwives disappearing a good bit prior to the war of the last alliance... but could be wrong, will have to check on that

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Somewhere, UT, IIRC, the expanded explaination of of the Brown Lands is that they were the gardens of the the Entwives, and that Sauron destroyed them in the War of the Last Alliance to prevent the allied army from having their use during its march down the Aduin. Scorched Earch tactic to deny food to the enemy on the march.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I'd say that it was due to Sauron sending orcs over there during the second age when he made War upon the elves of Eriador, but it's interesting that nothing's grown there since if that is the case.

Originally Posted by Blackheart

The Brown Lands...

I've never been able to uncover any information about the exact cause of the blight, other than Sauron gets the blame for it. As a side note, the withering of the Brown Lands leads to the seperation of the Ents and the Entwives...

And that's the interesting thing. I think we can clearly agree that the Brown Lands were attributable to Sauron, and may have been a result of the 'scorched earth' policy, BUT why are they still desiccated? As a general rule, carbon is VERY fertile, so if the Brown Lands WERE the result of the Scorched Earth policy, then why are they still barren?

[brownjenkins]

all i can say is wow!!

not that i'd expect any less from ms. pants

will have to read it now

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Telcontar

I'd say that they were from Mirkwood. In TTT Anborn and Faramir speak of black squirrels of Mirkwood so it is possible that the black swans are from there aswell. And they aren't to far from Mirkwood so it is possible the Black Swans were fleeing the rearising of Dol Guldur.

I do remember the black squirrels (lol, d'ye think they're like the central park squirrels from NY... little gangster squirrels?), but I don't quite recall the context. Are you saying that the swans were just indigenous fauna from Mirkwood? Not resultant of Sauron in any fashion?

Originally Posted by Telcontar

Well the Argonath was used as a border of Gondor. If it was a frontier for War then what would it be defending? I doubt it would be Gondor as the only evil dwellings in the North was Dol Guldur and Angmar. Yet Dol Guldur would be busy enough with the elves of Mirkwood and Lorien and Angmar with the realms of Arnor.

I only mention it because of Sam's perception:

Originally Posted by Sam on the Great River

...He felt that the Company was too naked, afloat in the little open boats in the midst of shelterless lands, and on a river that was the frontier of war.

Do you suppose that Sam means that the river is a boundary between East and West? Throughout the whole chapter, Tolkien is very careful to provide distinctions between the East bank and the West. There is very powerful imagery of the party of travellers being swept from jagged tooth-like shoals, into the proverbial arms of their enemies. The oppressive chill eastern wind. The Brown Lands. The drab grey rock of Emyn Muil. Versus rolling green meads, towering reeds, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by Telcontar

Well it is surprising that the orcs could see them. The cloaks protected the Company from unfriendly eyes and as we will come to find out friendly eyes somtimes aswell, so it is a feat that even the night eyes of the orcs could see the Company.

My feeling on this is that the cloaks provided some measure of camouflage, but they were spotted because of the boats. The arrows fall short, remember? I think that the party were nigh invisible, but the boats gave them away.

Originally Posted by Telcontar

...that is if the Fell Beast was there regarding the Fellowship.

To what regard do you think that the Fell Beast was there then, if it wasn't after the Ring/Fellowship?

Originally Posted by Telcontar

Probably the effect of Galadriels Ring. It helped to lose the efect of time so perhaps the Moon was effected with that.

This troubles me. We know that she is a Ring-bearer, and that the ring seems to act upon time (to make her realm 'time-less'), but how would that affect upon the moon? The stars are able to be seen, and we know that stars too, show the passage of time, so why is the moon absent? And is it absent from the skies of Lothlorien, or can it simply not be seen?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I do remember the black squirrels (lol, d'ye think they're like the central park squirrels from NY... little gangster squirrels?), but I don't quite recall the context. Are you saying that the swans were just indigenous fauna from Mirkwood? Not resultant of Sauron in any fashion?

In some ways yes. As I said before I thonk that the swans were fleeing the growing power of Dol Guldur, which is an effect of Sauron's forces in the North.

I only mention it because of Sam's perception:

Do you suppose that Sam means that the river is a boundary between East and West? Throughout the whole chapter, Tolkien is very careful to provide distinctions between the East bank and the West. There is very powerful imagery of the party of travellers being swept from jagged tooth-like shoals, into the proverbial arms of their enemies. The oppressive chill eastern wind. The Brown Lands. The drab grey rock of Emyn Muil. Versus rolling green meads, towering reeds, etc, etc.

I think that Sam had knew the different journeys that would be taken, depending on which side of the River thhey took. I think he also knew war was coming, and it would not only be to Gondor. Also it is possible that by this time he had already seen Gollum, and not trusting him because of Bilbo's story, he thought that it was all to possible that Gollum would put orcs on their trail.

To what regard do you think that the Fell Beast was there then, if it wasn't after the Ring/Fellowship?

To patrol the land. War was coming at the Nazgûl were not only used to search for the Ring. Also a patrol of orcs was shooting at the Company just before the Nazgûl came. Perhaps the Nazgûl had come to check on any force leaving Lorien. It is also possible that the Nazgûl was flying east with news from Dol GUldur.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

What do you think is meant by this comment? (feel free to link to appropriate threads)

i think he means that time moves swiftly, as they see the rise and fall of human civilisations in single lifespans of elves, whilst time moves slowly as they themselves change little, and their lives are eternal