LotR Discussion Project. Book Four. Chapters 1 and 2.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Lord of the Rings Discussion Project. Book Four. Chapters 1. The Taming of Smeagol.

We now return to the true quest with Frodo and Sam who are trying to escape the Rocky Hills of Emyn Muil. The first thing we ‘hear’ is on of Sam’s good ol’ stating the obvious lines, that help the reader guess what’s happened off screen.

”Well, master, we’re in a fix and no mistake.”

We then ‘hear’ Frodo again for the first time. He is stern and trying to adapt to the position of guide and leader which has previously been filled by Gandalf and Aragorn. We hear Frodo saying he should have left the Company long before and avoided Emyn Muil. But when could he have left? I’m not Galadriel would have let him wander off alone into the Wilderness, whatever Olmer might say.
During telling Sam they need to leave the hills he says he feels naked to the Eye of the Dark Tower. What is that? Is it the Palantir. Is it in the Spiritual world. Both? Neither?
We then come to Frodo’s fall. After persuading Sam not to climb himself, he falls, after he hearing a Nazgûl in the air and temporarily looses sight, until Sam lowers his long forgotten elven rope, which shines in the Dark. After much talk they decide to use the rope to help themselves escape the Emyn Muil. Frodo let’s Sam down and ties the rope to a rock for his own safety. On reaching the bottom, Sam realises that the rope is stuck at the top, and is utterly astounded when it falls. Frodo blame’s a dodgy knot, which Sam doesn’t take kindly, saying it answered his call. .
At the foot of the Emyn Muil they eventually found some kind of shelter. As they set up camp, Frodo noticed something climbing down the wall, but asks Sam what it is. Sam notices or guesses, that it is indeed Gollum, and sneaks over to try and deal with him. Unfortunately for Sam Gollum is tougher than he looks, and Sam would have been in serious trouble, had not Frodo been ready, Sting in hand. From the beginning we can tell Frodo’s sympathy towards Gollum is greater than Sam’s, Sam referring to Gollum as it, and Frodo referring to Gollum as him. Frodo then hears the voices of himself and Gandalf and their conversation in Moria.

What a pity Bilbo did not stab the vile creature, when he had the chance!
Pity? It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike with out need.
I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death.
Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many live that deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not to eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise can not see all ends.

After deciding not to kill Gollum , Frodo tells him of their journey, but not of their quest . At the mention of Mordor Gollum starts shrieking, saying they are always awake, and he can’t find it. Gollum agrees to guide them through the darkness, after grumbling about the White Face. Frodo sits Gollum between himself & Sam. Just as they expected Gollum vainly made an attempt to escape, but was soon stopped by Sam, who was hot on his heels. The hobbits decided to tie him up to ensure that there were no other escape attempts. The results were surprising, as soon as Sam tied the knot, Gollum started screaming, complaining that the rope was hurting him. Frodo was convinced that he truly was in pain, but would not remove the rope unless he had some promise he could trust. Smeagol then swore ‘On the Precious that he would be nice to the hobbitses. At this Frodo exploded in anger.

On the Precious? How dare you?” he said. “Think! One Ring to them all and in the Darkness bind them.
Would you commit your promise to that, Smeagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist you words. Beware!”

Just skipping ahead a bit, but do you that this oath had any affect on Gollum?
Gollum swore by the Precious, and Sam at Frodo’s bidding took the rope off Gollum’s ankle.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Smeagol leads the hobbits out of Emyn Muil, down towards the Dead Marshes. Gollum then recites some kind of poetry, which ends in “And now we wish”. At theses words Sam caught a glint in Smeagol’s eyes, but was relieved to hear the words “To catch a fish” about ten seconds later. This only reminds Sam of the food problems that they will now face. They stumbled on until morning drew near and Smeagol stopped because of the Yellow Face. Sam’s fears are relieved slightly when the lembas Frodo offers Smeagol, almost chokes him to death. As the hobbits eat their lembas Sam voices his concern about Smeagol and his new self, saying he is still capable of murder. Sam keeps watch as Frodo sleeps, but seeing Smeagol asleep has a little nap himself. When he wakes up Smeagol is no where to be seen and Sam curses himself, thinking their guide has escaped, but is proved wrong when Smeagol appears above him, but soon leaves again in search of food. As they set off again Frodo asks Smeagol whether they must cross the Marshes. Smeagol says no & tells him of his experiences with other paths & the Eye. The trio slowly make their way through the Marshes in single file, Smeagol, Sam, Frodo. As it grew dark, Sam noticed lights in the water, and after a while he could not bear them any longer and asked Smeagol what they were. “Candles of corpses,” replies Smeagol. At that moment Sam realised that Frodo was lagging, and turning back found him looking at the candles. After pulling Frodo away Sam fell forward into the Marshes and jumped out shouting. “There are Dead Faces. In the Water!” Smeagol then explains that they are standing on a battle ground and the reason they are called the Dead Marshes is because the corpses of all the Men and Elves and Orcs that were slain still lie where they were killed. They started off again but were soon stopped by Smeagol because of the White Face. Then they saw it. A dark cloud, issuing from Mordor passed over them. After it had passed Sam and Frodo stood up, but Smeagol lay still muttering and would not move until the Moon had sunk again. From this point onwards Sam noticed a difference in Gollum, he was nicer but Sam caught many strange looks in his eyes. That night Sam awoke during Frodo’s guard and saw Smeagol pawing him. Before he said anything he heard to voices coming from Smeagol. The Gollum one was saying that they should kill that nasssty hobbitses but the Smeagol voice was defending Frodo, saying that he is our friend. This argument ended in some sort of truce. Sam observed that instead of using names Smeagol used He and She. Sam guessed He was Sauron, but didn’t know who She was. When Frodo awoke he told Smeagol to lead them to the Black Gate. At this Smeagol seemed shocked & frightened but in the end accepted it. Twice that night a Nazgûl passed over the trio. Smeagol was worried by this, but lead the hobbits nevertheless.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Discussion points

1. Did Sam doubt that Frodo would find a way out of Emyn Muil?
2. Does Frodo regret leaving the Company? Does Sam regret following him?
3. Is Frodo suited to the position of leader? Why or why not?
4. What is the Eye of Sauron?
5. Why did the elven rope shine?
6. Did Gollum let the rope down?
7. Did Frodo have any idea it was Gollum on the wall?
8. What do you think Frodo thought Gollum would do if he knew of their quest?
9. Who are always awake and what can’t Gollum find?
10. Was the chapter named aptly? Was Smeagol really tamed?
11. Why did the lembas choke Smeagol?
12. What happened when the Eye caoght Smeagol?
13. Why did Sam follow Smeagol, not Frodo? Surely he’d prefer to keep an eye on his master than the guide?
14. What are the lights?
15. Why was the Nazgûl sent out?
16. Why did the Wraith passing make such a difference to Smeagol
17. Just one I want to add onto the end. What is the plural of Nazgûl?

Feel free to add anymore.

[Gordis]

Great summary, TD, thank you. And very interesting chapters, ones of my favourites.

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

During telling Sam they need to leave the hills he says he feels naked to the Eye of the Dark Tower. What is that? Is it the Palantir. Is it in the Spiritual world. Both? Neither?

Well, interesting question. Frodo has no ring on, so he is in the ordinary world, not in the spirit one. But he feels the Eye, while Sam doesn’t. Why? Here we are not told. There are 2 possible explanations. Frodo is more sensitive than an ordinary mortal either due to his Morgul-wound, or to the Ring. The way his acute perception is described in Moria, the Morgul wound may be the cause, but the fact that later, when Sam gets the Ring, he also starts feeling the Eye shows us that the Ring is the primary cause.

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

From the beginning we can tell Frodo’s sympathy towards Gollum is greater than Sam’s, Sam referring to Gollum as it, and Frodo referring to Gollum as him.

Good observation, TD!
Really, Frodo’s experience with the Ring makes him pity Gollum. I bet, given more time, Frodo would feel pity for the nazgul as well…

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

Just skipping ahead a bit, but do you that this oath (by the Precious) had any affect on Gollum?

It has sealed Gollum’s fate and saved ME.

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

Discussion points

1. Did Sam doubt that Frodo would find a way out of Emyn Muil? No.
2. Does Frodo regret leaving the Company? Yes, but he knew its inevitability. Does Sam regret following him? No.
3. Is Frodo suited to the position of leader? Why or why not? Yes, as Saruman observed later, Frodo has grown. He has become wise and cruel. Not really cruel, though, but much stronger mentally and sterner than before.
5. Why did the elven rope shine? Sorcery of the White Witch activated…Or, alternatively, it always shone in the spirit world and Frodo got transferred there partly by a nazgul cry, therefore lost his sight.
6. Did Gollum let the rope down? No, that was definitely Galadriel’s sorcery.
7. Did Frodo have any idea it was Gollum on the wall? Yes, he felt him keenly.
8. What do you think Frodo thought Gollum would do if he knew of their quest? I think he knew full well that Gollum will not let the Precious perish.
9. Who are always awake and what can’t Gollum find? Sauron and the Ring, of course.
10. Was the chapter named aptly? Was Smeagol really tamed? Yes, at least on the surface.
11. Why did the lembas choke Smeagol? He was corrupted by the Ring and almost became a wraith. I bet the name of Elbereth would have been a blow to him as well.
12. What happened when the Eye caught Smeagol? You mean back in 3017? It was described in UT and discussed in the thread about Gollum.
13. Why did Sam follow Smeagol, not Frodo? Surely he’d prefer to keep an eye on his master than the guide? ???When?
14. What are the lights? A very interesting question. I don’t know. Do you think that the lights on the Dead Marches were a natural phenomenon or Sauron’s sorcery? Were there spirits of the dead lingering nearby, or just the illusion of corpses in the water? It there were unquiet spirits, why had they not gone to Mandos?
15. Why was the Nazgûl sent out? The nazgul flew over the marches, but when he spotted the hobbits, he turned and flew back to Mordor. So his errand was to check the Marches. Who sent him? Sauron or the Witch-King. I bet the latter. And Sauron never learned from his wraiths of the ring’s location. Some think, the wraith did not see them. But why did he turn then and flew overhead? Why did he shriek?
16. Why did the Wraith passing make such a difference to Smeagol? He knew the wraiths were able to sense the Ring and he believed (how could he not?) that the Wraith will tell Sauron.
17. Just one I want to add onto the end. What is the plural of Nazgûl? The same. Nazgûl – both singular and plural.

[Artanis]

Excellent summary T_D
Sorry I havent't got time to say more than that.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by gordis

It has sealed Gollum’s fate and saved ME.

Love the understatement!

Ditto Artanis's post; will contribute more when time allows.

[CrazySquirrel]

An excellent summary and good questions. As I have recently become a wraith myself , I am most interested in No15.

Originally Posted by gordis

15. Why was the Nazgûl sent out? The nazgul flew over the marches, but when he spotted the hobbits, he turned and flew back to Mordor. So his errand was to check the Marches. Who sent him? Sauron or the Witch-King. I bet the latter. And Sauron never learned from his wraiths of the ring’s location. Some think, the wraith did not see them. But why did he turn then and flew overhead? Why did he shriek?

Of course the nazgul saw them. I thought so when I read it, i remember. Does anyone think otherwise?

[Lotesse]

He HAD to have seen them. Otherwise, what bloody good is a Nazgul, if he can't spot a Ringbearer from a fell beast looking down over a treeless swamp in Mordor's "backyard"?

[The Gaffer]

IIRC, they have poor eyesight (according to Aragorn in FOTR anyway). We "cast shadows in their minds", and in daytime relied on their mounts' eyesight.

There is a shadow of a suspicion in my mind that Frodo in the marshes coincides with some event or other. Lost my copy of the ROTK so can't check the Tale of Years, but maybe something happened which made him recall the Nazgul?

Shriek is for dramatic effect, surely?

[Butterbeer]

sensing the ring being the point? .. else (as soon to be wraith herself? Lotesse says)

whats the b****** point of sending them out if all they have in terms of seasrching for the ring is wordly eyes that cannot see and nothing else?????

how you doing gaffer?
Ps what taters' would you recommend for roasting?

TD! good stuff! where did you get number 4 from? (valandil alert!!)

...must confess i havent yet had time to read your summary in full yet .. but i will !

very best BB

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

IIRC, they have poor eyesight (according to Aragorn in FOTR anyway). We "cast shadows in their minds", and in daytime relied on their mounts' eyesight.

I should say, the Fellbeasts, being creatures of darkness, must have had wonderful nightsight. Moreover, the nazgul should sense the ring.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

There is a shadow of a suspicion in my mind that Frodo in the marshes coincides with some event or other. Lost my copy of the ROTK so can't check the Tale of Years, but maybe something happened which made him recall the Nazgul?

Nope. There is nothing important happenning at this time.
Tale of Years
March1 "Frodo begins the passage of the Dead Marshes at dawn. Entmoot continues. Aragorn meets Gandalf the White. They set out for Edoras. Faramir leaves Minas Tirith on an errand to Ithilien".
March2. "Frodo comes to the end of the Marshes. Gandalf comes to Edoras and heals Théoden. The Rohirrim ride west against Saruman. Second Battle of Fords of Isen. Erkenbrand defeated. Entmoot ends in after-noon. The Ents march on Isengard and reach it at night."

So, why would Sauron recall the nazgul he supposedly sent to scout the Marches? He had others at his disposal.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Shriek is for dramatic effect, surely?

For dramatic effect you need an audience. What is the need to shriek if the nazgul saw nothing in the Marches?

[Beren3000]

Great summary, TD. Thanks for taking the time!

Here's the question that caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Just skipping ahead a bit, but do you that this oath had any affect on Gollum?

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think this oath "sealed Gollum's fate."
I can picture a scenario where Gollum never meets with Frodo and Sam (i.e. never takes the oath) but keeps following them into Mordor and tries to take the Ring from Frodo in the Sammath Naur AND falls into the fire.
Plus, the fact that Frodo tells Gollum that if he betrays this oath Frodo will put the ring on and command him to cast himself into the fire is (IMO) just foreshadowing on Tolkien's part and foresight on Frodo's part.

Originally Posted by gordis

For dramatic effect you need an audience.

Just a wild guess here...but could the audience be the readers?

[The Gaffer]

Butterbeer: King Edwards, of course! But keep the skins on...

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Great summary, TD. Thanks for taking the time!

Here's the question that caught my eye:


Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think this oath "sealed Gollum's fate."
I can picture a scenario where Gollum never meets with Frodo and Sam (i.e. never takes the oath) but keeps following them into Mordor and tries to take the Ring from Frodo in the Sammath Naur AND falls into the fire.
Plus, the fact that Frodo tells Gollum that if he betrays this oath Frodo will put the ring on and command him to cast himself into the fire is (IMO) just foreshadowing on Tolkien's part and foresight on Frodo's part.

Hmmm. But don't you think that JRRT uses language in this sort of way (as a kind of contract with fate), consistently and powerfully throughout LOTR. In this case we've also got Frodo's curse on Mount Doom which underlines it.

Soon after this we've got Faramir's promise not to take the ring (oh but better wait till later for that discussion).

Anyhoo, people take what they say seriously in Middle Earth. Not even the wickedest creatures dared to cheat at the riddling game! And for good reason... their words always come back to haunt them.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Just a wild guess here...but could the audience be the readers?

LOL. Quite.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Just a wild guess here...but could the audience be the readers?

LOL But I have another wild guess, perhaps the Dead marches looked not empty of all to the nazgul, but swarming with spirits of all those fallen at Dagorlad. Perhaps he saw them and cried sumthing like "Hey, Guys, it is sooo much better to be undead than dead like you! "

[Gordis]

Perhaps there were no actual spirits there. (Who kept them from going to Mandos after the overthrow of Sauron?) Perhaps it was only an illusion of corpses in water, while the lights were natural.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Hmmm. But don't you think that JRRT uses language in this sort of way (as a kind of contract with fate), consistently and powerfully throughout LOTR. In this case we've also got Frodo's curse on Mount Doom which underlines it.

Yes, but as I've said, I think these prophetic words are narrative devices rather than powers that be. I don't think that Gollum fell into the fire BECAUSE Frodo foretold it but rather Frodo somehow foresaw it. I think the same goes for any of these other prophetic words:

The Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

So there are special circumstances where ordinary people (Men) are given the gift of foresight so why shouldn't we assume that that's the case here with Frodo? The situation at hand here is special enough (IMO) to justify Frodo's being given the foresight. (Remember that Frodo had been long in contact with the Ring at the time and "his fate was tied to it")

P.S. Thank you, TD for the quote in your sig!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No problem Beren. I actually agree with you here, that Frodo foresaw what would happen, though I think that he also doubted it.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by gordis

Perhaps there were no actual spirits there. (Who kept them from going to Mandos after the overthrow of Sauron?) Perhaps it was only an illusion of corpses in water, while the lights were natural.

I tend to think the corpses had actually been preserved - sort of like how they're preserved in 'peat bogs' in northern Europe... and that there were spirits there, but they weren't the spirits of those bodies - but more like the unclean spirits that had entered the barrow downs after the Great Plague.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

2. Does Frodo regret leaving the Company? Does Sam regret following him?

I don't think Sam ever regretted following Frodo, not in that sense. I think he may have wished Frodo had chosen a nicer destination to go to, but I doubt he ever regretted following, especially since he saw it as his task to follow his master.

6. Did Gollum let the rope down?

I don't think so. If he reacted so badly to it when he was bound with the Elven rope, I doubt he would have been able to touch it earlier when it hung over the rocks. I agree with Sam on this one, the rope came when he called it. Ah, I always found Sam's faith in all things Elven quite endearing.

10. Was the chapter named aptly? Was Smeagol really tamed?

For the time being, yes, I think Sméagol was truely tamed. But not for long. I suppose if Frodo had Sam had taken Sméagol in the other direction, where the influence of Sauron wasn't so heavy and where the nazgul weren't seemingly always present, that Sméagol would not have betrayed the Hobbits.

17. Just one I want to add onto the end. What is the plural of Nazgûl?

Like sheep, no plural? *now imagines black-cloaked sheep bleating happily in the fields. The overactive imagination, it can be a burden*

Originally Posted by Gordis

I should say, the Fellbeasts, being creatures of darkness, must have had wonderful nightsight. Moreover, the nazgul should sense the ring.

But apparently only clearly when it's worn. In a later chapter the Witch-King himself passes the Hobbits by on only a short distance. He senses something but he apparently doesn't recognize the Ring for what it is.