A Lord Of The Rings Question

Regarding Barrow-wights, they aren't just Barrow-wights. They used to be something else before they were wights (unless they're Maiar). You have suggested they were either Maiar or Elvish wraiths because of the kind of power they seem to possess. I hold however that they are Mannish wraiths, infact wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum (because Merry called them 'men of Carn Dum'.). That's what I meant.

You're mistaken. Merry did not refer to the wraiths as men of Carn Dum.

And there remains no textual evidence to support your thesis that the Istari represented a sub-group of Maiar who were distinctively separate from other Maiar in terms of power.

For the Istari to be Maiar, they must be a sub-group. The Istari are Maiar, but since "Istari" doesn't refer to the entire Race of the Maiar, it refers to a sub-group. It's logic Michael, it's only obvious the Istari are a kind of Maiar. The quote to them being Maiar but not neccisarily on the same level or order is in the Letters, you can check it yourself.

Fog On The Barrow-Downs, page 189 (in the millenium edition):

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast. 'No! No!' he said, opening his eyes. 'What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?'

For the Istari to be Maiar, they must be a sub-group. The Istari are Maiar, but since "Istari" doesn't refer to the entire Race of the Maiar, it refers to a sub-group. It's logic Michael, it's only obvious the Istari are a kind of Maiar. The quote to them being Maiar but not neccisarily on the same level or order is in the Letters, you can check it yourself.

You're assuming that the Istari as a group are either more powerful or less powerful than other Maiar, and there is no basis for making such an assumption. The Maiar, when Tolkien discusses them, are not divided into "those who are Istari and those who are not".

Fog On The Barrow-Downs, page 189 (in the millenium edition):

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast. 'No! No!' he said, opening his eyes. 'What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?'

I'm well aware of the passage. Merry is not referring to the Barrow-wights. He is recalling a memory from the last prince of Cardolan, who was slain in Tyrn Gorthad in the war of 1409.

Where does it say that about the last prince? Merry just awoke from a terrible dream in the clutches of a Barrow-wight. I find it peculiar it would have nothing do with the Wights, what was the battle of 1409? Angmar must have been involved for him to say 'men of Carn Dum', so it does not dissaprove my theory. Wouldn't it make sence for the Wights to be the wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum, since Merry awoke from a nightmare in one the Wight's Barrow--a nightmare about the Men of Carn Dum?

You don't have to assume the Istari are more or less powerful for them to be a sub-group. They're a kind of a Maiar, that's a sub-group.

gads! it's deja vu all over again.

Where does it say that about the last prince? Merry just awoke from a terrible dream in the clutches of a Barrow-wight. I find it peculiar it would have nothing do with the Wights, what was the battle of 1409? Angmar must have been involved for him to say 'men of Carn Dum', so it does not dissaprove my theory. Wouldn't it make sence for the Wights to be the wraiths of the Men of Carn Dum, since Merry awoke from a nightmare in one the Wight's Barrow--a nightmare about the Men of Carn Dum?

As I mentioned previously, there were no barrow-wights in 1409. They didn't infest Tyrn Gorthad until after the Great Plague.

In 1409 an army came out of Angmar and overran Rhudaur and Cardolan. The Dunedain of Cardolan fell back to Tyrn Gorthad and the Old Forst. The last prince of Cardolan (not a descendant of the House of Isildur) died in Tyrn Gorthad.

Merry's dream is the memory of how the Dunedain were overwhelmed in that final battle. The Appendix says that some people believed the barrow in which the Hobbits were imprisoned was that of the last prince. There is no mention of any wights participating in the war of 1409.

You don't have to assume the Istari are more or less powerful for them to be a sub-group. They're a kind of a Maiar, that's a sub-group.

Which has nothing to do with your original assertion that they were a lesser order of Maiar. They were, technically, the only "order" to come out of the Maiar, and they were probably far fewer in number than the rest of the Maiar (but "fewer" doesn't mean the same thing as "less" or "lesser" although most people tend to use these words interchangeably).

"As I mentioned previously, there were no barrow-wights in 1409. They didn't infest Tyrn Gorthad until after the Great Plague.

In 1409 an army came out of Angmar and overran Rhudaur and Cardolan. The Dunedain of Cardolan fell back to Tyrn Gorthad and the Old Forst. The last prince of Cardolan (not a descendant of the House of Isildur) died in Tyrn Gorthad.

Merry's dream is the memory of how the Dunedain were overwhelmed in that final battle. The Appendix says that some people believed the barrow in which the Hobbits were imprisoned was that of the last prince. There is no mention of any wights participating in the war of 1409."

You seemed to have still proved my point somewhat. It wouldn't matter if the Barrow-wights weren't around in that battle, as by my theory the Barrow-wights are wraiths, and were once alive. If the Appendices says the Barrow in which the Hobbits were trapped may have been home to the last Prince of Cardolan, than the Barrow-wights are deffinitely Men, and it's still possible a portion of them were men of Carn Dum, but not Elves or Maiar.

"Which has nothing to do with your original assertion that they were a lesser order of Maiar. They were, technically, the only "order" to come out of the Maiar, and they were probably far fewer in number than the rest of the Maiar (but "fewer" doesn't mean the same thing as "less" or "lesser" although most people tend to use these words interchangeably)."

I was side trackted, but you must admit the Istari are a sub-group. My original assertion I took back.

Not having access to the HOME or LETTERS etc, I've been puzzled by a contention that I've seen on occassion that Barrow Wights are spirits of faded elves. I've not seen a direct quote that supports this assertion.

Why on Arda would such entities seek to haunt the graves of men long dead? Rather, wouldn't they be haunting elves, or forming a focus for some sort of orcish worship?

I think, especially given the nature of wights in Northern European mythology, that it is more consistant that the wraiths of men haunt the tombs of men.

Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone:
never more to wake on stny bed,
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead.
In the black wind the stars shall die,
and still on gold here let them lie,
till the dark lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land.

Also, given the nature of the incantation of the Barrow-Wight, it seems to me that here is a spirit of some kind that was looking forward to some sort of Second Coming of Morgoth. This fits in with the notion that evil folk fell into the worship of Morgoth, which would have to take such a form. I would speculate that the Barrow-Wights were the lingering wraiths of evil men who had worshipped Sauron as a god and Morgoth as God, whose spirits were preserved after death (during the Plague?) in the tombs of their enemies, until defeated by Bombadil.

You seemed to have still proved my point somewhat. It wouldn't matter if the Barrow-wights weren't around in that battle, as by my theory the Barrow-wights are wraiths, and were once alive. If the Appendices says the Barrow in which the Hobbits were trapped may have been home to the last Prince of Cardolan, than the Barrow-wights are deffinitely Men, and it's still possible a portion of them were men of Carn Dum, but not Elves or Maiar.

No, the Barrow-wights are NOT definitely Men. They aren't definitely anything. You're making connections which just don't work.

The Lord of the Nazgul sent wights to inhabit the barrows after the Great Plague. The book doesn't say or imply they were the spirits of Men, Elves, or Maiar. It's anyone's guess what they were.

But given that Legolas didn't think the spirits of Men were very powerful, and given the fact that Tolkien wrote that Elven spirits were very powerful, well able to possess the bodies of living Men who tried to deal with them, I tend to believe the wights were probably Elvish spirits. Eomer's crack about "Elvish wights" seems to confirm that Men, at least, associated wights with the Elves. That in itself means nothing, but it's one more piece of the puzzle.

Sauron doesn't seem to have been able to keep the wraiths of Men in Middle-earth without resorting to Rings of Power, which were in short supply. The wraiths of Elves, however, would be another matter, especially where those wraiths had refused to go to the Halls of Mandos.

And, if you're going to insist on getting some sort of agreement from me then, yes, I have to admit that the Istari do form a sub-group of Maiar. In that respect, at least, I was incorrect.

Not having access to the HOME or LETTERS etc, I've been puzzled by a contention that I've seen on occassion that Barrow Wights are spirits of faded elves. I've not seen a direct quote that supports this assertion.

Why on Arda would such entities seek to haunt the graves of men long dead? Rather, wouldn't they be haunting elves, or forming a focus for some sort of orcish worship?

I think, especially given the nature of wights in Northern European mythology, that it is more consistant that the wraiths of men haunt the tombs of men.

There is no passage I know of which explains what the wights are, although in early versions of the book they were Elven spirits, closely associated with the Nazgul.

But Tolkien's discussions concerning the fates of Elven spirits are provided in Morgoth's Ring. Among other factors he considered was the prospect that if, during Morgoth's reign in Angband, an Elf refused the summons of Namo to the Halls of Mandos, the spirit was counter-summoned by Morgoth and could not refuse. Such spirits were forced into Morgoth's service, but Tolkien didn't say what that service consisted of.

Another example of Elven spirits staying around was that of spirits which simply didn't want to leave Middle-earth. They would stay near their former lands as "haunts". Men might try to communicate with them but it was deemed perilous for Men to do this.

And as far as Northern mythologies go, they were only one of several sources Tolkien drew upon for inspiration. It is a mistake to assume that anything which has a parallel in Norse, Germanic, or Celtic mythology must have been taken from those sources.

But the Barrow-wight which captured the Hobbits was in the service of Sauron, who (according to Tolkien) claimed to be Morgoth returned at the end of the Third Age. The wight might have thought it was serving Morgoth, but if so, that is just making a stronger case for it being an Elven spirit.

"No, the Barrow-wights are NOT definitely Men. They aren't definitely anything. You're making connections which just don't work.

The Lord of the Nazgul sent wights to inhabit the barrows after the Great Plague. The book doesn't say or imply they were the spirits of Men, Elves, or Maiar. It's anyone's guess what they were."

But you just finished telling me Tolkien said the Barrow-wight that captured the Hobbits may have been the last Prince of Cardolan, and after being rescued Merry awoke from a dream that atleast (or at the most perhaps, granted) involved the men of Carn Dum. The only evidence about the nature of their existance at all implies they may have been Men. That's not deffinite, you're right, but it's more likely than Elves or Maiar.

I don't think Men aren't very powerful because Legolas doesn't fear them. They sure know how to conquer enemies, I'll tell you that much (but seemingly they wouldn't have been able to had Aragorn led the Dead Men against an Elvish army.) But the Barrow-wights may be an exception. They may be far more powerful than other wraiths, as the result of one thing or another (we would have no way of knowing what things). I think Merry's dream and Tolkien's words in the Appendices are better pieces to the puzzle. There is the problem of why the Barrow-wights would be around. The Dead Men remained because of an oath, perhaps some similar bond was made between the Witch King and whomever to bring about the Barrow-wights eventually.

Try as I might, I can't find that refference in which I was certain Tolkien said something along the lines of 'The Istari are Maiar, although not neccisarily on the same level of order'. What am I thinking of?! I know it was in the Letters. Oh well. Maybe it's not.

"But the Barrow-wight which captured the Hobbits was in the service of Sauron, who (according to Tolkien) claimed to be Morgoth returned at the end of the Third Age. The wight might have thought it was serving Morgoth, but if so, that is just making a stronger case for it being an Elven spirit. "

Wasn't the last prince of Cardolan a Dunedan? Didn't they preserve knowledge about the Valar? And aren't we to assume the Herumor of the Fourth Age was a Man? He led a Morgothian cult. Maybe it doesn't apply since that was some 200 years after the War of the Ring.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

Well, I do see now, especially with regard to Eomer's "elvish wights" comment, that Elvish Wights can not be ruled out!

If an Elf had forsaken the Halls of Mandos, turning to the Darkness, but still bound to Middle-earth, then such spirits might well prove to be under the power of whoever might be exercising Morgoth's will on Middle-earth.

Add to this, Sauron's title of Necromancer, and we may have something else to work with. The Witch King, during his days of power, would certainly have access to such spirits in the service of Morgoth.

I understand better now the Elvish Wight concept. It still seems possible to me that some Numenorean spirits might be in the mix. That Legolas the Elf did not fear such spirits is not, however, conclusive that the Barrow-Wight was elvish.

This is one of the unanswerables.

As for the last Prince, if the Barrow Wight had been tasked to instill fear in this remnant of the Dunedain during their last battle, it might well have had access to the thoughts of the dying, finding something to savor perhaps.

It is thought in Christian theology that such stories as are told by those who believe in reincarnation, are actually the stolen memories of the dead, conveyed to the living in demonic trickery. (I know, demons are not ghosts!)

Such a spirit might well dwell in gloating malice over such thoughts, cherishing them until Morgoth raised his hand, conveying them to Merry, enjoying his terror and despair at reliving them...

Just for kicks, until he died in his nightmares of cold, starvation, or thirst. (Or was he to be actually slain?)