thrandruil the greedy - Page 2

FrodoFriend · 06-16-2002, 02:08 AM

I think it's just because Elves were different in The Hobbit. More spritely, practical jokers, less perfect in general. Their character changed throughout Tolkien's writing. Frankly, I like them better when they're less perfect.

Christiana · 06-22-2002, 12:38 AM

well,if someone murdered the high king of my people,I wouldnt like them.

Ñólendil · 06-22-2002, 03:32 AM

Christiana, when you said Eol was an "unwilling" Elf, did you mean that he was an Avar? There's conflicting stories about which Race he belonged to (according to some writings he was a Tatyarin Avar, in others a Nelyarin Avar, in others a Sinda), but in The Silmarillion as published, for what it's worth, he was a Sinda, a Grey-elf of the kin of Thingol.

Quote:

Maybe It was an age old resentment for the Dwarves,stemming from the sack of Doriath,that made these Sindarian's want to caus trouble with the Dwarves.After all isn't Thranduil supposed to be from(or desended from someone from)Doriath?-Maybe he just don't like Dwarves,In which case, Curse Elves and thier stiff neck's!

Good point. The Sindar in the Woodland Realm were definitely a minority (the majority of Elves there were Nandorin/Avarin), but you're probably on to something. Thranduil's father lived in Doriath and he himself may have as well. It was the Sack of Doriath that set the seeds of racism towards Dwarves in Celeborn, Thingol's grand nephew.

Jador · 06-24-2002, 06:34 AM

It's a hell of a long time to hold a grudge,innit?The more I think about this question the more I dislike Thranduil...Legolas was o.k. to Gimli from the start tho' maybe they learned alot(and forgave)after the Battle of the 5 Armys!

SamwiseGamgeeOTS · 06-29-2002, 05:13 PM

Men only wish for money and power. They would have come up with any reason to get some of Thorins' gold.

afro-elf · 08-18-2002, 03:10 AM

Some more quotes from others:

Quote:

Dare I admit that Thranduil holds a certain, ahem, attraction for me? He is certainly more human than Galadriel et al. He seems to have a great zest for life - if we can extrapolate from the fact that Tolkien indicates that he is a wine connoiseur and enjoys parties. Possibly a bit vain if his golden hair and seasonally appropriate crowns are any indication. By the same token, I envision him as quite an attractive guy (though I suppose that could be said of virtually all Elves, unless Cirdan's beard is a turn off. For me, his choice in headgear also indicates concern for the environment and that he was undoubtedly a conservationist. Organic farming, companion planting, sustainable agriculture/forestry in general were no doubt primary interests, as protection of a woodland realm would require. Deer herds in Mirkwood were most certainly well managed. He is quite imperious and does have a temper doesn't he? But there had been bad blood between Elves and Dwarves for a long time and so perhaps he was one to hold a a grudge. And as he said at the time,

The Hobbit - Barrels Out of Bond
"It is a crime to wander in my realm without leave. Do you forget that you were in my dingdom, using the read that my people made? Did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour? After all the disturbance you have made I have a right to know what brings you here, and if you will not tell me now, I will keep you all in prison until you have learned sense and manners!".

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And then Thorin & Co. still wouldn't tell him what they were doing, so what was he supposed to do when he found them sneaking around in his realm? After they recovered the treasure trove I expect he felt he deserved payment for the trouble they caused him. He seems to enjoy ruling and being kingly and leading armies and such. He is also a compassionate and beneficent ruler if his speed in coming to the aid of the Lake people is any indication.

Christiana · 08-18-2002, 12:22 PM

wll,put yourself in his shoes!for all he knows they cold be spies!

afro-elf · 10-17-2002, 12:35 AM

Didn't bard say something to the fact that Thranduil aided the men of Dale and the only bond upon him was friendship

Eothain · 01-09-2003, 03:19 PM

He is abit greedy yes.

Yazad · 01-10-2003, 09:20 PM

I think that the elves went with Bard & Co. to the Lonely mountain as allies in case some unfortunate incidents occured.

Remember Bard says to Thorin, "We came expecting to find none living here."

And remember Smaug's, "Had you never thought of the catch..." regarding the transport of the wealth.

As we learned quickly, Bolg had heard of the death of the Dragon (right?) and was ready to cash in, so had Bard & Co. arrived there alone with tattered forces, it's doubtful that they would have been able to make any defense at all of the horde against the goblin army. Hence I think they sent a special barrel back up the river to the King witha message saying "Here's some fine spirits, and would you come help us cart away this cash?"

When they arrive at the Mountain and find it inhabited, then things change. I think the elf king probably is very pissed, and probably feels humiliated at having been bested by this band of rag-tag dwarves.

Regardless, I don't think he had any claim on the treasure, and in the end he didn't receive a share, even with Thorin trying to make pre-Mandos ammends. His cash in came from Bard probably from a long standing relationship and to sweeten the pot for later dealings between New Dale and the Forest.

I do agree, though, that Bard/Laketown probably had a much larger than 1/12 portion due to them. Bard as dragonslayer carries one hellova lot of weight. Also the significant amount of the wealth in the horde was stolen from the ruins of Dale does, I think, deserve to be returned to them.

Plus, add into the mix the spell of the dragon horde, which is bound to cause problems.

Rambling, sorry!

Yazad

Lefty Scaevola · 01-16-2003, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christiana
well,if someone murdered the high king of my people,I wouldnt like them.

Those particular dwarves, of a diferent race (the firebeards rather than the longbeards) died 6500 years before the hobbit story.

Gwaimir Windgem · 01-16-2003, 09:18 PM

Wasn't some of the treasure stolen from the Elves of Mirkwood? In which case, in a sense, they would be entitled to part of it, namely the part stolen from them. Of course, I could be wrong about some of it being stolen from them.

***Jonathan*** · 01-21-2003, 04:07 PM

Recently, when I read The Hobbit for the second time, I tried to spot Thranduil's name but I couldn't find it anywhere in the book. Is his name even mentioned in The Hobbit, or do we first get to know his name in LotR?

Artanis · 01-21-2003, 05:00 PM

He is not mentioned in the Hobbit by name. He is only referred to as the Elven-King.

06-16-2002, 02:08 AM	#21
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	I think it's just because Elves were different in The Hobbit. More spritely, practical jokers, less perfect in general. Their character changed throughout Tolkien's writing. Frankly, I like them better when they're less perfect. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

06-22-2002, 12:38 AM	#22
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	well,if someone murdered the high king of my people,I wouldnt like them. __________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

06-24-2002, 06:34 AM	#24
Jador Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Land of my Fathers. Posts: 184	It's a hell of a long time to hold a grudge,innit?The more I think about this question the more I dislike Thranduil...Legolas was o.k. to Gimli from the start tho' maybe they learned alot(and forgave)after the Battle of the 5 Armys! __________________ 'Some who have read the book.. have found it boring,absurd or contemptible;and I have no cause to complain,since I have similar opinions of thier works...'-JRRT 'If he wins back to the caves,he will pass your count again... Never did I see an axe so wielded'-Aragorn

06-29-2002, 05:13 PM	#25
SamwiseGamgeeOTS Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A quaint little hole which last time I checked was somewhere near Ohio, Middle-Earth. Posts: 165	Men only wish for money and power. They would have come up with any reason to get some of Thorins' gold. __________________ "...Eragon recoiled in shock. Standing in front of him, licking off the membrane that encased it, was a dragon."

08-18-2002, 12:22 PM	#27
Christiana Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor Posts: 1,231	wll,put yourself in his shoes!for all he knows they cold be spies! __________________ I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris

10-17-2002, 12:35 AM	#28
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Didn't bard say something to the fact that Thranduil aided the men of Dale and the only bond upon him was friendship __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-09-2003, 03:19 PM	#29
Eothain Enting Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 73	Thranduil He is abit greedy yes. __________________ Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing? Where is the hand on the harpsting, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? They have past like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow. Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning, or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning? Frodo lives

01-10-2003, 09:20 PM	#30
Yazad Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 56	I think that the elves went with Bard & Co. to the Lonely mountain as allies in case some unfortunate incidents occured. Remember Bard says to Thorin, "We came expecting to find none living here." And remember Smaug's, "Had you never thought of the catch..." regarding the transport of the wealth. As we learned quickly, Bolg had heard of the death of the Dragon (right?) and was ready to cash in, so had Bard & Co. arrived there alone with tattered forces, it's doubtful that they would have been able to make any defense at all of the horde against the goblin army. Hence I think they sent a special barrel back up the river to the King witha message saying "Here's some fine spirits, and would you come help us cart away this cash?" When they arrive at the Mountain and find it inhabited, then things change. I think the elf king probably is very pissed, and probably feels humiliated at having been bested by this band of rag-tag dwarves. Regardless, I don't think he had any claim on the treasure, and in the end he didn't receive a share, even with Thorin trying to make pre-Mandos ammends. His cash in came from Bard probably from a long standing relationship and to sweeten the pot for later dealings between New Dale and the Forest. I do agree, though, that Bard/Laketown probably had a much larger than 1/12 portion due to them. Bard as dragonslayer carries one hellova lot of weight. Also the significant amount of the wealth in the horde was stolen from the ruins of Dale does, I think, deserve to be returned to them. Plus, add into the mix the spell of the dragon horde, which is bound to cause problems. Rambling, sorry! Yazad

01-16-2003, 09:18 PM	#32
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Wasn't some of the treasure stolen from the Elves of Mirkwood? In which case, in a sense, they would be entitled to part of it, namely the part stolen from them. Of course, I could be wrong about some of it being stolen from them. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

01-21-2003, 04:07 PM	#33
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	Thranduil's name Recently, when I read The Hobbit for the second time, I tried to spot Thranduil's name but I couldn't find it anywhere in the book. Is his name even mentioned in The Hobbit, or do we first get to know his name in LotR? __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻

01-21-2003, 05:00 PM	#34
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	He is not mentioned in the Hobbit by name. He is only referred to as the Elven-King. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.