Lord of the Rings Discussion Project. Chapters II & III

[jammi567]

nice intro and discusion points Telcontar_Dunedain. And i've got a question for you:

"Before it (gollum) stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone, and truble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"

i'm not sure whether it's been on other threads before, but is the voice the Ring manifesting its thoughts (esentually Sauron's) through Frodo, or is it Frodo's own thoughts enlarged by the wound and carrying it for over 20 years? Or is it Frodo reminding Gollum of the promice he made, "You swore a promise by what you call the Precious", but with more power because a) it's so near its place of making and b) Frodo is so weak that the Ring is essentually thinking that if Frodo can getrid of Gollum, he can make his own way to Sauron without being interupted.

And what is the significance of white in this particular section?

p.s hope that made sense.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

1. Why did it take so long for help to arrive at Cirith Ungol. There was an important prisoner there and Sauron allowed a fight to take place there. Why was there not a Nazgûl there from the beginning?

I dare say even communication takes a while to filter through to Sauron. He's got a huge empire to run, and that means a considerable red tape to get through. And right now Sauron's attention is drawn to his Gondorean campaign so he would probably leave other things such as spies to lower levels of command. And the in-fighting in Cirith Ungol took place in matter of hours. I'd say the Nazgul arrived very quickly as it did. It was just out of luck that the Hobbits, clad in grey, and in a dark night, had just left the tower when it arrived.

Is the black figure the Witch-King or another Nazgûl bringing bad news.

I'm guessing another Nazgûl, bearing orders.

Do you think that hearing about the great Elf Warrior would have boosted Sam's spirits?

If it didn't, the little orc running away on the stairs must have.

Does Frodo giving Sam to Sting symbolise the 'Changing of the Guard'? Bilbo to Frodo. Frodo to Sam.

Not really, for one, the most important bit, the Ring, doesn't change hands anymore. Frodo is just shedding the weight of other things to concentrate solely on bearing the Ring. Sam also carries Galadriel's phial, the blanket, cooking materials and the lembas store.

5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there wold be no return, or was this the first time he realised?

I think this was pretty much the first time he started realising it for real. He may have had an inkling before, but I doubt his common Hobbity optimism gave it much thought before.

Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think?

Interesting comparison. In Gollum the second voice seemed to be his longing for the Ring. Sam considers his second voice to be despair. Gollum listens to other voice, appearing to be unable to stop debating with it. Sam tries to ignore it most of the time.

Through out these two chapters the two Hobbits think of Lorien and the Shire. Was Tolkien trying to say that these two places were the complete opposite of Mordor?

If you read the description of Mordor, there is not a place I can think of that can be more desolate than that. I can easily imagine thinking of better places instead, which the Hobbits do. Its interesting to note that Sam can still imagine the peace and beauty of the Shire, whereas Frodo can hardly remember them.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

yes, sure - but that's Gandalf's view.

remember Tolkien sets this out as a History- but he is very clear that it is one as seen from the perspective of and by the accounts of the hobbits - and they at best second guess much of the enemy's movements, plans and thoughts ... how can they not?

Tolkien did set the stories out as a narrative of history, but considering his sometimes lapses in consistancy, I think he did not keep that always in mind and that sometimes things that are told are not just somebody's opinion of the events, but the way Tolkien wanted the events to actually happen.

Originally Posted by Gordis

At Sammath Naur, Gollum broke his Oath and attacked his Master. Could an oath sworn on the mightiest object in Middle Earth be broken without retaliation? He was cast in the fire exactly as Frodo the Ringlord said.

But Frodo no longer controlled the Ring at the moment that Gollum took a dive into the volcano. So I don't think Gollum's fall was Frodo's doing. I'm more inclined to think that Frodo's words earlier were inspired by some unconcious foresight of fire.

But it's an interesting idea you bring up. Did the Ring influence Gollum to fall because he had broken the very promise he had sworn on it? If so, the Ring procured its own demise. This would seem to indicate that the Ring is capable of some pre-defined actions, like influencing people and furfilling statements of its bearer, (a bit like a programmed computer) but not with thinking such things through.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Earniel

I'd say the Nazgul arrived very quickly as it did. It was just out of luck that the Hobbits, clad in grey, and in a dark night, had just left the tower when it arrived.

It? IT? You call the nazgul IT? Grrr...

[Earniel]

Well, the defining bits are no longer quite visible, are they?

[Gordis]

Visible enough to call us ... at least "they".