The Lord of the Rings discussion: Foreword and Prologue

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Olmer
My HO is that Celeborn ultimately stayed in Middle-earth About Celeborn: "...but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens" - and this is a SUGGESTION that he never sailed West. [/B]

I think the last part of that sentence "and with him went the last living memory of the elder days im Middle-Earth" is unequivicable that he departed. It also would say that all other person of the first age (Cirdan, any other first age elves, Fangorn, and Bombadil!?) had left ME before him.
It say "and with him went" not "and with him would go" or any orther grammer suggesting incompleted action.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola

It say "and with him went" not "and with him would go" or any orther grammer suggesting incompleted action.

It's all relative and depends on your whole perception of the story. In all Tolkien's work is no definition on this subject, just suggestions, which you can interprete in the way more appealing to your taste.

It also would say that all other person of the first age (Cirdan, any other first age elves, Fangorn, and Bombadil!?) had left ME before him.

Fangorn and Bombadil? Hm...
Can you back up your statement with quote ,possibly, or with description of how you came to such conclusion?

[Lefty Scaevola]

"the last livng memory of the elder days"

'last' is not vague or ambigous.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
"the last livng memory of the elder days"

...
Had to agree with you that it makes sense...

But then again it just implies that he lingered on ME longer than Fangorn, which believed to live through the Fourth Age.

Considering that the Last Ship sailed at the beginning of F.A. ,and since it was no mentions that such notable figure sailed away 100
years later with supposedly last boat made by Legolas and Gimli, you cann't help to come to conclusion that Celeborn, outliving Threebeard, continued to live on Middle-earth untill he eventually "fade away".

[Valandil]

Hmmm... interesting thoughts about Treebeard / Fanghorn and Tom Bombadil, Olmer. I guess too, we could view this as:

1. Did the author really mean this as a literal statement... that there was NO OTHER LIVING MEMORY of the Elder Days?

OR

2. Can we take it as a 'figure of speech'... especially since Treebeard and Tom Bombadil had very limited contact with the rest of 'society' - at least that which the sources derived from and with which we are connected - so that, even if they WERE still around, in some faded, diminished or otherwise indiscernable form, there was no significance in their memories to the society about them. Hah - in other words, since they didn't really TALK to anyone else, and SHARE their memories - those memories don't matter very much... at least not to anyone but themselves.

Lefty, I think it DOES make a good case that Celeborn at least, eventually took ship to the West. Similarly though, playing 'devils advocate' to myself - if the matter of his sailing is unknown/ uncertain, does there remain a chance that he simply faded to the point of no longer having contact with the rest of 'us'? ie, that his memories simply no longer had significance beyond himself? Though one would assume he'd look forward to reunion with Galadriel...

[Valandil]

Either that... or the author simply didn't desire to tie up ALL the loose ends he had created for himself!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Olmer
Considering that the Last Ship sailed at the beginning of F.A. ,and since it was no mentions that such notable figure sailed away 100
years later with supposedly last boat made by Legolas and Gimli, you cann't help to come to conclusion that Celeborn, outliving Threebeard, continued to live on Middle-earth untill he eventually "fade away".

You say it yourself Olmer - supposedly last boat. Apparently Cirdan and the Elves at the Havens weren't the only ones who was able to build vessels bound for the West. Legolas made his ship in Ithilien long after the Havens were deserted, there's no reason why Celeborn should not do the same.

He would eventually follow me.

[Lefty Scaevola]

As for "no record of the day" the overwhelming preporderance of events in the history of the world have no record, even the maority of things known (take the simple example of death, some 35 billion+/- humans have died on Earth, we have record of a few billion). It was not all that long ago in our worl when the majority of knowledge was handed down orally.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Olmer
Secondly, I'm absolutely disagree on conclusion that J.R.R.T wanted us to believe that HIS majestic elves evolved in some kind etherial Shakespearean creatures, for he DISPISED Shakesperian description of the elves, and he thought that is
"unforgivable"(Letter#185) and he was worried that he could not change people perception of elves (formed, by the way, by Christian church with a great help of popular writer) as little creatures unimportant to God, while from Celtic mythology, North legends and even the Bible came to us a description of beings greater in wisdom and skill, mighty and beautiful, which stayed on the ladder next between the God and Men.

Well, I already said that Tolkien didn't like Shakespeare elves. Perhaps I didn't explain it well, but I think that the "faded elves" that remained in ME are still here. "Fading" is not the same that "dying".

I'm not sure on this, but IIRC, fading means that the "hroa" gets complety consumed, but the "fëa" still lives. The problem of fading is that without a "hroa" the elves became trapped in ME and couldn't go to the unpersihable West.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
As for "no record of the day" the overwhelming preporderance of events in the history of the world have no record...

True.
But then we have to define what IS this book.
If you consider that the "LOTR" is to be another children's story, and also has no real basis in history, it pointless to look for the inner meanings at all. Why we, then, would forget about discussions and just take the book as it meant to be - a children's fairy tale? Then we could take things and events as they are in the book - plain and simple.
But I'm looking at it as a historical document based on more than 30 years of scrupulous research and study of separated documents and pieced together by the genius of J.R.R.Tolkien.
Perhaps, Tolkien had a very good reason for specifically highlighting the fact that he "recorded" the history and its varied applicability (true or feigned) is up to the reader, so a different interpretation is allowed and possible. And since all historical recording usually vary with the point of view of chronicler, the examination from another angle could open an unlimited field for unexpected discoveries.
In this case 'no records' could be examined and you can get a glimpse of the lost history by connecting the dots, which I'm trying to do.

Originally posted by Artanis You say it yourself Olmer - supposedly last boat. Apparently Cirdan and the Elves at the Havens weren't the only ones who was able to build vessels bound for the West. Legolas made his ship in Ithilien long after the Havens were deserted, there's no reason why Celeborn should not do the same

I have never implied that Cirdan was the one-and-only shipbuilder, but as time went by with the beginning of new age and extensive mass-emigration of elves, it was not many places left, where you can build the ship, nor you can found a craftsmen , who knew how to do it.
I assume, that under guidance, providing material and helping hands, you can build a ship in any place, like Legolas did, but since it will be more and more difficult to find such guidance, it will take much longer time eventually ceasing to nothing.
The " open" option to sail West got "closed" with the last ship. Cosidering that the Grey Havens and the most of elves dvellings became deserted somewhere in the beginning of 4 Age that option was not indefinite.
Some of the Elves, who in the past decided to postpone their departure, found that they indefinitelly late and even if now they would greatly desired to pass into the West, they had no means to do so.." There is now no ship that would bear me hence ", ( LOTR. App. A ) regretfully says Arwen and it is sad truth in her words: too late not only for her, but for others of her kindred, like Celeborn or Thranduil.

Originally posted by Valandil ... does there remain a chance that he simply faded to the point of no longer having contact with the rest of 'us'? ... Though one would assume he'd look forward to reunion with Galadriel

Tolkien implies that even in "faded" state some elves can make possible for certain humans to see and to hear them.
Then it goes pure speculation: by saying so, was J.R.R.T giving us a hint that somehow he was the one who had "the encounter"?
As about Celeborn...Where this assumption came from?
Judging by his replies you could say that the big chasm was growing between the"loving couple", and this is the real reason why Celeborn opt to stay in ME and didn't go with his wife.

[Artanis]

Some of the Elves, who in the past decided to postpone their departure, found that they indefinitelly late and even if now they would greatly desired to pass into the West, they had no means to do so." There is now no ship that would bear me hence ", ( LOTR. App. A ) regretfully says Arwen and it is sad truth in her words: too late not only for her, but for others of her kindred, like Celeborn or Thranduil.

Arwen is not an argument. She couldn't go West because she CHOSE to become mortal, as I'm SURE you know.

I think this will be my last word on the subject.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Artanis
Arwen is not an argument. She couldn't go West because she CHOSE to become mortal, as I'm SURE you know.

It's not about her choice.
It is about her knowing that it's NO ships to sail West.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Legolas built and sailed his own ship 122 years into the fourth age, a little after Ellessar had died. I no of no restriction for any other elf to do so then or afterward. Arwen could not go because she was prohibbited, having made wholely mortal.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Legolas built and sailed his own ship 122 years into the fourth age, a little after Ellessar had died. I no of no restriction for any other elf to do so then or afterward. Arwen could not go because she was prohibbited, having made wholely mortal.

Yep. And also Sam went somehow to the West a little before Legolas.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Olmer
...

A question: Are you TRYING to be insufferable? Cos we already have one around here, and it's no use trying to take HIS mantle.

[cee2lee2]

"bumping" for latecomers, like me, who want to get caught up

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by azalea

This is one thing that bothers me sometimes. I respect Tolkien’s need to revise, and am happy it added to the end result, but I also in some ways see it as a breach of contract with the reader. One would like to think that what he read originally was complete and accurate in the author’s mind, and for him to change details seems to be unfair to the first readers. ADDING new info, such as in the Appendices, is no problem, nor are corrections of typos and the like; it’s things within the text that are changed that I find to be problematic, which renders previous versions inaccurate. Furthermore, it caused discrepancies in the different editions, and no one could be sure if it was an author’s revision, or simply a printing error.

As far as I know, all great books of the past were subject to revisions. Newer editions were twiked very often. One of the foundational italian novels (the betrothed) had been revised tons of times and the later edition hardly resembles the first (with full chapters taken out and others put in).

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=azalea]Well, I'm not really saying that, I meant that when Bilbo says he was 4'5'' and could ride a horse, it may be true (or it could be an exaggeration), but that the way it sounds is like a lot of our tall tales. The invention of golf, well, if you're looking at it as factual, then no, I guess I would say he didn't REALLY invent it, but within the context of the story, sure, I believe it.



I always thought Tolkien was telling how Bullroarer had "pre-invented" golf, pior to our current age (or post middle - earth??)

I don't think he was suggesting the hobbits and strider or elrond, say, were in the habit of doing a leisurally back nine of a sunday? I don't think they actually subsequently played golf in the Shire or the West?

I agree its just a beautiful way of adding history and colour and context to the prologue. Also more importantly i think he sees it as a transitional bridge (in terms of writing) between the styles and worlds of the Hobbit and TLOTR.

[Pitchike12]

Great job Azalea! Hope you will come back ounce again in the forum.