The Lord of the Rings Discussion : Chpts 7 and 8

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

But they could because it wasnt so much a shadow world, it was... an otherworld and the spirits of the imortal elves were in that side of existance. If an elf is killed in arda his spirit(shadow world form0 goes to the halls of mandos. I am pretty sure the elves could see, they could see frodo as he was becoming more wraithlike, and if he put on the ring perhaps.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I don't think that the elves could see into the shadow world.

I don't think that any elf could see into the shadow world (the Wood Elves could not see Bilbo when he wore the ring ), but some of the, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm, probably can. Remember what Gandalf tells Frodo in "Many meetings" about Glorfindel.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He only said that he was visible because he was of the Firstborn not that he could see him.

[Artanis]

Gandalf actually said that "those [of the Elves] who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm, live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." It is reasonable to believe that if you are present in the shadow world, then also everything and everyone else in that world is visible to you.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So in a way they were half wraiths of good?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

well back to my point, if even some of the higher elves can see frodo in the "shadow realm" than someone higher like a maia or vala could no dount see him!? As Tom Bombadill had to be something higher than even elf if he is telling the truth about being fatherless.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Unless he is one of the elves that was first awoken by Eru.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Who is Tom
I think that Tom is Arda as it was created by Eru in the beginning. The more men/elves/dwarves/hobbits modify Arda, the less Tom considers it its reign. Given that Arda is a thing, not a being, he/it is not affected by the ring

My question 1
One day is spent in the house of Tom (while it was raining). Does this have any special meaning?

My question 2
Both Tom and Goldberry know of the perils of the Barrow Downs and still they send the hobitts on on their own. Why is that? It is true that Tom gives them a ryme to call him but he should have known that they were unlikely to have the presence of mind to use such a ryme

[Valandil]

*DING*

Just had a thought.

Late in Chapter 8, when Bombadil gives the knives to the Hobbits and tells them about the Men of Westernesse - and the sons of forgotten kings who still go wandering about, they suddenly see a vision:

"The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as a great expanse of the years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow."

What were they seeing, and who was that last one? My first thought (knowing what I know now) was that it was the line of kings, in reverse - and they saw Elendil at the last. Another thought was that it was the forces of Arthedain, going off to fight Angmar's forces - but with the king bringing up the rear, rather than leading, which would be odd.

But it just occured to me that Tom perhaps gave them a vision of Aragorn. What do you guys think??

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Valandil

*DING*

Just had a thought.

Late in Chapter 8, when Bombadil gives the knives to the Hobbits and tells them about the Men of Westernesse - and the sons of forgotten kings who still go wandering about, they suddenly see a vision:



What were they seeing, and who was that last one? My first thought (knowing what I know now) was that it was the line of kings, in reverse - and they saw Elendil at the last. Another thought was that it was the forces of Arthedain, going off to fight Angmar's forces - but with the king bringing up the rear, rather than leading, which would be odd.

But it just occured to me that Tom perhaps gave them a vision of Aragorn. What do you guys think??

i think it is aragorn, with the grey company, protecting the boundaries of the shire, but meh! what do i know

[Serenoli]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Who is Tom
I think that Tom is Arda as it was created by Eru in the beginning. The more men/elves/dwarves/hobbits modify Arda, the less Tom considers it its reign. Given that Arda is a thing, not a being, he/it is not affected by the ring

My question 1
One day is spent in the house of Tom (while it was raining). Does this have any special meaning?

My question 2
Both Tom and Goldberry know of the perils of the Barrow Downs and still they send the hobitts on on their own. Why is that? It is true that Tom gives them a ryme to call him but he should have known that they were unlikely to have the presence of mind to use such a ryme

It was chance that brought them to the Barrow downs. They were initially planning to bypass it from the north, but their ill-timed nap, and the unexpected fog caused then to lose direction and unwittingly wander into the Barrow downs. So Tom and Goldberry were not really expecting them to encounter the wights- the rhyme was given as a 'just-in-case'

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Things have changed drastically in the last 24 hours for our hobbits. Fatty Bolger saw them off into the Old Forest with a prophetic : "I only hope you will not need rescuing before the day is out" - and of course, they DID need rescuing, and Tom's the one that rescued them.

BUMP!!

These threads are great! Lol this is now officially my favorite thread on the Moot (along with the discussion of Chapters 5 and 6) I always thought the trip from Bag End to the Brandywine river, and then the start of their voyage 'for real' into the depths of the Old Forest was the best read of the entire Lord of the Rings

Tolkien at his best. I like the description of the early morning mist when the four hobbits set off into the Old Forest, with distant sounds and an air of suspense in the hours before sunrise

Will definitely add some thoughts later here!