LOTR Discussion: Appendix A, Part 1

[jammi567]

Wow! good work.

I haven't really read the appendices in ages. i only mainly dip in, so i'll leave this to the experts.

[Gordis]

I think this quote captures the very essence of the Appendix A:

They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all. Sheep walked for a while biting the grass, but soon the hills were empty again. A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind.’ Stone rings grinned out of the ground like broken teeth in the moonlight.

I love this "the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords". It is so well written.

However, now that I think about it, it somehow doesn't fit very well with the image of the old declining civilization we get from the Appendices... More like building of the young new kingdoms...

[The Gaffer]

Doesn't that quote come from In the House of Tom Bombadil?

[Spock]

nevermind

[Earniel]

To think the Dutch translation completely omits the appendices! It was only later that I noticed that my friend, who had just bought the English version, had a list of angerthas and tengwar in her copy! I then had no option but to buy the English version, which I was already planning on but then I at least had an excuse. Never regretted it, the appendices hold a wealth of info I hate to go without.

Originally Posted by Valandil

The White Tree planted by Tarondor died the same year as the steward Belecthor II. No replacement could be found, so it was kept standing, “until the king returns.”

The dying of the Gondorean White Tree doesn't seem to be a random effect, it always coincides with a death of a ruler. But does any of you have an idea why the Trees died when they did? The Tree that died with the death of King Telemnar and his children seems obvious enough. The direct line is broken and a nephew takes the throne and moves it to Minas Anor.

But why didn't the Tree die at the death of Ondoher and his sons when the line was again broken big time? Or why did it not die when the kingship effectively died out in Gondor with the unspecified death of Eärnur? What was so special about Steward Belecthor II that the Tree followed suit at his death and not at a seemingly more significant earlier event?

Originally Posted by Valandil

How much of this material do you think Tolkien had worked out in advance, or while he was still working on the story - and what do you think maybe came as an "afterthought"?

I think much of the events of the Second Aera were developed during the writing of LoTR. Eventually he also linked to the Silmarillion tales which already existed before. I don't remember a specific time line, but I daresay the idea of sunken Númenor seemed to exist in some capacity, yet not yet linked into Middle-earth.

What do you see from actual history? Did Tolkien copy particular histories or "borrow" episodes? Do any particular characters seem like real historical characters? Which ones, and who are they like?

The Plague that hits Gondor and Arnor pretty hard must have been based on the pest-plague in Medieval Europe.

What do you like or not like about the story of Aragorn and Arwen?

It certainly explained a few things. I remember Arwen's sudden appearance at the end somewhat confused me on my first LoTR-reading. And Aragorn's words at Cerin Amroth had me clueless. The appendix-story makes a lot clearer, although I somewhat agree with Gordis that it seems much of an after-thought. It could have been improved on if Tolkien had had more time to flesh it out.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I didn't share the disappointment with the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. I found it very poignant, as you might have guessed from the above. At last Arwen understands the despair of the "Iluvatar's Gift" to men, and, broken by grief, she lies down to die in Lorien. Contrast this with Aragorn's acceptance of death, ending his life willingly, rather than clinging on until "unmanned and witless" (can't remember where that phrase came from but I'm sure it's in there somewhere).

Yes, the contrast between both takes on mortality is striking. It is curious enough that Arwen doesn't seem to put much stock into being able to meet Aragorn again beyond the limits of the Arda, while he does.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

:
:
The dying of the Gondorean White Tree doesn't seem to be a random effect, it always coincides with a death of a ruler. But does any of you have an idea why the Trees died when they did? The Tree that died with the death of King Telemnar and his children seems obvious enough. The direct line is broken and a nephew takes the throne and moves it to Minas Anor.

But why didn't the Tree die at the death of Ondoher and his sons when the line was again broken big time? Or why did it not die when the kingship effectively died out in Gondor with the unspecified death of Eärnur? What was so special about Steward Belecthor II that the Tree followed suit at his death and not at a seemingly more significant earlier event?
:
:

I think there was something special about Belecthor II - but I have no idea what it was.

This goes beyond the information in the Appendices, but in HOME 12: "The Heirs of Elendil" - we see that Belecthor lived to be 120. You have to go back 8 generations of Stewards to find one who lived longer - and none after him lived to be any more than 100.

That's very unusual for how Tolkien lays out the ages that characters in his lineages reach. Among the Dunedain, they are always shortening - consistently. Belecthor II may be the only exception - besides Aragorn (except for much smaller variances among Stewards).

So - I wonder if Tolkien either had something special in mind for Belecthor - or else if he wanted to at least ALLOW for something special about Belecthor, and was going to get around to thinking what it was later.

[Earniel]

Interesting tidbit about Belecthor II's age. I wonder what Tolkien wanted to add to his life, but never came around to.