Religious beliefs/Former Frodo and Sam thread

[Feraway Hawkbriar]

Religion...

I simply dont get it... I really dont... I cant grasp the concept of being so absoluty shure of one thing or another in relation to life, afterlife, great creators and dogma.

I mean, how can you REALLY be sure?

I have always beleived and will always beleive that there absolutly no way that anyone can for a fact be sure of what they beleive. Now follow me closely on this one because i'm not even sure if I'm makeing sense to myself. When I say noone can be sure, I dont mean as in the solidity of ones beleife in something, for anyone can be absolutly sure of what they BELEIVE. But rather in where they are getting the messege of what they beleiev from. How can any holy scripture or scrole or tablet or what have you be trusted and be absolutly proven to be from the mouth of god/goddess/munky/whatever?

Theres SO MANY. I mean, how can just one be right? Perhapse none of them are right, perhapse Religions are just things to make people feel better about their life and death and theres no such thing a soul and theres no point to life at all. Or perhapse they are all right and theres a bunch of greater beings campeigning for the biggest following so one of them can win the office jackpot? or a different beleifs different destinations thing is going on?

Or maybe I'm just freeky for being only 15 and thinking about this kind of stuff and chooseing not to make assumptions about powers that be...if there be any...

Forgive me for rattleing on and probably not makeing much sense...*sigh* I'm going to bed.

[Arathorn]

Its ok, I guess. Even in academic discussions in software newsgroups, when people never agree on, let's say which OS or Linux flavor works best, people just raise their arms up and say: "We're obviosly from different OS religions"

[Nibs]

Well, that's just asking for us religious zealots to rattle on ourselves... here goes:

I've always believed that you have to try these things for yourself. Of course it sounds silly when someone says :I just know." It's vague and unconvincing. However, that's looking at it from a strictly logical view. If you were to say "hmmm... maybe 'll try whatever so-and-so did and see if I get the same results" you may or may not see what he/she means.

I'm not sure if this will sound clear, but I've always been taught that philisophical (of man) and spiritual (of God) knowledge is learned on different levels. You can't understand something spiritual from a strictly philosophical level. You can read as much as you like about it, but it all comes down to doing what the religious lexicons tell us. Praying, fasting, whatever you will, they are outlined steps to believing.

I hope that makes sense. Once again, just my beliefs, take them as such.

[markedel]

Enoch is not canonical in any ways, though belief in angels exist in Judaism, if not nearly to the same extant as in Christianity. Judaism tends to lean away from mysticism not that there isn't a mystical strain, but for various reasons it's less predominent. Mostly because it's wasn't out to convert anyone and din't need "cool religious stuff"

[markedel]

Tolkien did manage to convert C.S Lewis. I think that's pretty impressive.

[Arathorn]

I see. I also think Tolkien was able to convert C.S. Lewis because Tolkien's family were also not originally Catholics. It's easier for him to focus on the right things that would convince Lewis to change beliefs.

[sepulchrave]

Tolkien was involved in a discussion with Lewis that was pivotal in his conversion. the discussion concerned the nature of myth and whether the christian story might be an example of myth becoming fact; that is, the common images of the "dying god" that are widespread amongst diverse ancient mythologies having been shadows or premonitions of the real thing...that God placed in the heart of man the image of the incarnation prior to its occurence. In other words, any mythologies invented by ancient peoples would necessarily resemble the actual plan that would later unfold in this world. This talk had little or nothing to do with catholicism vs. protestantism or any sectarian or doctrinal issues, rather, the nature of truth. It is one of the central points of Christian belief that the omnipotent Author of all things incarnated and invaded history. Without the incarnation, there is obviously no Christianity. Jesus the Nazarene claimed outrageous things for himself. He left his audience without an exit. he could not be simply regarded by his listeners as a "wise man", because he did not give them this option. He claimed to be the maker of the worlds. we can call him insane, or a demonic deceiver, but we cannot call him a wise man that taught nice things and leave it at that.
For a thorough treatment of the conversion of C.S. Lewis, I refer the reader to the book "Surprised by Joy", which Lewis wrote as an autobiographical treatment of his philosophical search for truth. No one can say that Lewis didn't think things through! In the book, the rigorous, logical mind of this great man really shines as he sifts through the weight of various philosophical worldviews and detects the underlying flaws in each one before (quite reluctantly) coming to the conclusion, thanks to dear JRRT, that the Christian myth might actually be the central truth of all existence. I highly recommend this book for all, not simply Christians, as it is not only a good read, but also an interesting perspective on a remarkable man. Certainly, if you have read the Narnia books or the Space trilogy, This little book will allow the reader to understand the mind that brought them all to fruition. Lewis and Tolkien were great friends for many years.