Hobbits: size questions?

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-30-2001, 02:47 AM

What are you going to do about the hobbits size. Cast children to play the role? I cant think of any other practical soliution? Maybe just cast short people as hobbits. Or very tall People as all the other charecters.

Sorry if you already answered this. I am simply too tired to go delving into all the threads on this forum.

**hama** · 12-31-2001, 01:03 AM

Excellent question. It is one of those questions that many who have difficulty envisioning LotR on stage think of. I don't mean any insult by that and I certainly don't automatically lump your into that category. I had to make a lot of decisions about what I thought could be brought to stage. Obviously having the Hobbits on stage in juxtaposition to other characters is a necessity. So how to do it?

Children? Yes that is an option but how does a child of 8 or 9 convincingly play a character 111 years old in the case of Bilbo or 70+ in the case of Frodo? I don't really think they can.

Short people? Midgets or dwarves. Well perhaps but I don't think they have the ease of movement that seems natural to Hobbits...or even Dwarves if you get my meaning.

So...yes short people...either male or female will play the hobbits and Gimli....probably 5'1" or shorter. The Actor who plays Aragorn will have to be at least 6'3" and other characters will have to be at least 6'1". While I do not have the luxury of CGI I can use one aspect of stage craft, the raked or angled stage to my advantage. If the staging keeps Hobbits and dwarves down stage (lower) from the taller actors, it will give the audience the impression of added difference in height. Theatre and movie audiences are different in what they will allow their minds to accept. In theatre we call it the "willing suspension of disbelief." In a movie their can be a gun shot and the next shot will be a very realistic view of the bullet hitting the person and blood etc. In theatre the same gun shot happens but the opposite actor simply falls down, and the audience accepts that reality.

Perhaps another way to put it is that in movies the audience is often blown away by how realistic something looks. In theatre they are almost as often blown away by how close to realistic something looks. A good example of this might be the Helicopter landing on stage in Miss Saigon or all the animals on stage in Lion King.

Wow, that was a very long winded answer to your question but I hope it suffices.

If you have other questions please feel free to follow up.

Brad

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-31-2001, 01:57 AM

Yeah that makes sense. It sounds like it could make a very interesting production. Keep it up and if you can when you cast the parts give us links to pictures of the cast I would love to see who you picked.

-CARDEN

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-31-2001, 02:09 AM

Yeah that makes sense. It sounds like it could make a very interesting production. Keep it up and if you can when you cast the parts give us links to pictures of the cast I would love to see who you picked.

-CARDEN

Renille · 01-01-2002, 04:55 PM

Haha...I could almost be a hobbit! I'm barely 5'2''.

**hama** · 01-01-2002, 10:25 PM

With the addition of Renille as a Hobbit my dream cast has just added a member.

Theoden...Colm Wilkinsom of Les Miserables fame.

Aragorn....Jimmy Smitts...I know that may be a controversial pick but his presence and power as an actor (not to mention that he can in fact sing very well) makes him a natural.

Eowyn...Alice Ripley...although after hearing Nicole Kidman sing in Moulin Rouge and Gwynneth Paltrow sing in Duets, I might consider them as well.

Denethor....Jerry Orbach....he might make a great Gandalf as well.

Boromir/Faramir....(Boromir dies before Faramir appears so the same actor will probably play both roles....there is a line in the book that suggested this) ...I can't remember his name at this moment but he starred in Scarlet Pimpernel.

That's all that comes to mind at the moment. I know there are more.

Anyone have any suggestions?

CardenIAntauraNauco · 01-02-2002, 12:24 AM

LOL....EMILIO ESTEVEZ FOR SARUMAN

**hama** · 01-02-2002, 11:43 PM

I am assuming your post refers to Jimmy Smits as Aragorn. Then oh pray tell me what a Northern Ranger of say 10 thousand years ago is supposed to look like. Personally, I am not sure that a tall, lanky man with sharp angular features isn't accurate.

Agburanar · 01-08-2002, 08:57 AM

When I was thinking about designs for The Hobbit stage play I had the actors playing men and elves on thick soled shoes and all the cast had masks, size according to race and importance! I don't think that'd work here, I envisage the piece as being too physical for thick soles. By adding a series of slight rakes on the stage and by placing blocks at unseen points behind walls (or on the Moria platforms on the set ideas I sent you) the Hobbits could be made to look smaller by illusion in a similar way to the basic foreshortening used in the film. The downside is that the stage will be viewed from several angles so the characters would have to be far enough upstage for this to work. It's a tricky problem alright!

**hama** · 01-09-2002, 12:13 AM

I think if you "establish" the relative heights of the characters correctly (probably in the Council of Rivendell), it will be enough to create the illussion for the audience. Then if later the action takes actors places where when viewed by some members of the audience they don't have the same full effect, those audience members will still accept the differences in height.

rainbow · 03-06-2002, 03:35 PM

wouldn't that b a bit confusing as u don't have many line to explain it in a musical?
how would the scenery work? would u adapt it or actually have them go inside the cave thingies??

**hama** · 03-07-2002, 10:26 PM

Perhaps agburanur is best suited to answer this last post. I am confused by cave thingies...?

Agburanar · 03-08-2002, 05:00 AM

Yeah, I was confused too but I didn't want to answer before you hama, it is your musical after all.

I think it would be a mistake to have the set changing height depending on which character is on what part of it, it would get very complicated and silly. Better to establish height differences early on and let the sudience accept it.

**hama** · 03-09-2002, 12:58 AM

Agburanur,

I think you are agreeing with me but I not certain. I don't envision the set changing heights beyond the use of hydraulics to create the illusion od ascent and descent while keeping the characters in the same position relative to the audience.

As for waiting for me to answer, I would hope not. I will know I have created something special when discussions start taking shape without me being involved. There are so many interesting questions asked and so many great Tolkien fan's here that I would hope my work simply becomes a springboard for discussion.

Brad

Agburanar · 03-11-2002, 05:50 AM

More than anything I don't think it's neccesary to have the set moving up and down, lighting and chracterisation can have just as good effects and be less comfusing. However I still feel that the pace that the story will have to go at to condense the story into 2/3 hours will mean that the set will need to be changing frequently and this would add to it's impressiveness and make the audience feel they really have been on a journey across the equivalent of most of Europe.

Ararax · 03-12-2002, 02:08 PM

you cut their legs off

**hama** · 03-12-2002, 07:12 PM

No we save that fate for theatre critics.

Agburanar · 03-15-2002, 05:07 AM

You make them carry those sack things and have their feet in the sacks walking on their knees, like that circus group thing, can't remember what they're called.

Faeirex · 05-19-2002, 11:21 AM

Why not just have all the other actors wearing stilts/platforms/similar? Galadriel wore platforms in the movie to bring her up to the right height, so it's been done before. That should sort out the height problems without going into midgets/children. They need the most talented actors/actresses possible to do the thing well, and it would really cut down on their options to have to find short people.

~Fae

Agburanar · 05-19-2002, 04:09 PM

Sorry, but not a good plan!

Firstly they would look like they had socking great shoes on, not very elegant eh?

Also they wouldn't be able to have twirly fight scenes or even run away because they'd be tripping up.

Also Galadriel wearing them in the film is a good reason not to have them. This musical has to be ORIGINAL, not a staged version of the film.

12-30-2001, 02:47 AM	#1
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Hobbits: size questions? What are you going to do about the hobbits size. Cast children to play the role? I cant think of any other practical soliution? Maybe just cast short people as hobbits. Or very tall People as all the other charecters. Sorry if you already answered this. I am simply too tired to go delving into all the threads on this forum. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

12-31-2001, 01:57 AM	#3
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Yeah that makes sense. It sounds like it could make a very interesting production. Keep it up and if you can when you cast the parts give us links to pictures of the cast I would love to see who you picked. -CARDEN __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

12-31-2001, 02:09 AM	#4
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Yeah that makes sense. It sounds like it could make a very interesting production. Keep it up and if you can when you cast the parts give us links to pictures of the cast I would love to see who you picked. -CARDEN __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

01-01-2002, 04:55 PM	#5
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	Haha...I could almost be a hobbit! I'm barely 5'2''. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-01-2002, 10:25 PM	#6
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	Some Members of my "Dream Cast" With the addition of Renille as a Hobbit my dream cast has just added a member. Theoden...Colm Wilkinsom of Les Miserables fame. Aragorn....Jimmy Smitts...I know that may be a controversial pick but his presence and power as an actor (not to mention that he can in fact sing very well) makes him a natural. Eowyn...Alice Ripley...although after hearing Nicole Kidman sing in Moulin Rouge and Gwynneth Paltrow sing in Duets, I might consider them as well. Denethor....Jerry Orbach....he might make a great Gandalf as well. Boromir/Faramir....(Boromir dies before Faramir appears so the same actor will probably play both roles....there is a line in the book that suggested this) ...I can't remember his name at this moment but he starred in Scarlet Pimpernel. That's all that comes to mind at the moment. I know there are more. Anyone have any suggestions?

12-31-2001, 01:03 AM	#2
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	Excellent question. It is one of those questions that many who have difficulty envisioning LotR on stage think of. I don't mean any insult by that and I certainly don't automatically lump your into that category. I had to make a lot of decisions about what I thought could be brought to stage. Obviously having the Hobbits on stage in juxtaposition to other characters is a necessity. So how to do it? Children? Yes that is an option but how does a child of 8 or 9 convincingly play a character 111 years old in the case of Bilbo or 70+ in the case of Frodo? I don't really think they can. Short people? Midgets or dwarves. Well perhaps but I don't think they have the ease of movement that seems natural to Hobbits...or even Dwarves if you get my meaning. So...yes short people...either male or female will play the hobbits and Gimli....probably 5'1" or shorter. The Actor who plays Aragorn will have to be at least 6'3" and other characters will have to be at least 6'1". While I do not have the luxury of CGI I can use one aspect of stage craft, the raked or angled stage to my advantage. If the staging keeps Hobbits and dwarves down stage (lower) from the taller actors, it will give the audience the impression of added difference in height. Theatre and movie audiences are different in what they will allow their minds to accept. In theatre we call it the "willing suspension of disbelief." In a movie their can be a gun shot and the next shot will be a very realistic view of the bullet hitting the person and blood etc. In theatre the same gun shot happens but the opposite actor simply falls down, and the audience accepts that reality. Perhaps another way to put it is that in movies the audience is often blown away by how realistic something looks. In theatre they are almost as often blown away by how close to realistic something looks. A good example of this might be the Helicopter landing on stage in Miss Saigon or all the animals on stage in Lion King. Wow, that was a very long winded answer to your question but I hope it suffices. If you have other questions please feel free to follow up. Brad

01-02-2002, 12:24 AM	#7
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	LOL....EMILIO ESTEVEZ FOR SARUMAN __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

01-02-2002, 11:43 PM	#8
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	I am assuming your post refers to Jimmy Smits as Aragorn. Then oh pray tell me what a Northern Ranger of say 10 thousand years ago is supposed to look like. Personally, I am not sure that a tall, lanky man with sharp angular features isn't accurate.

01-08-2002, 08:57 AM	#9
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	When I was thinking about designs for The Hobbit stage play I had the actors playing men and elves on thick soled shoes and all the cast had masks, size according to race and importance! I don't think that'd work here, I envisage the piece as being too physical for thick soles. By adding a series of slight rakes on the stage and by placing blocks at unseen points behind walls (or on the Moria platforms on the set ideas I sent you) the Hobbits could be made to look smaller by illusion in a similar way to the basic foreshortening used in the film. The downside is that the stage will be viewed from several angles so the characters would have to be far enough upstage for this to work. It's a tricky problem alright!

01-09-2002, 12:13 AM	#10
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	I think if you "establish" the relative heights of the characters correctly (probably in the Council of Rivendell), it will be enough to create the illussion for the audience. Then if later the action takes actors places where when viewed by some members of the audience they don't have the same full effect, those audience members will still accept the differences in height.

03-06-2002, 03:35 PM	#11
rainbow Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: in my head Posts: 61	wouldn't that b a bit confusing as u don't have many line to explain it in a musical? how would the scenery work? would u adapt it or actually have them go inside the cave thingies?? __________________ smile & be happy (frodo lives) BANANERISM RULES!!!!! the spotty dog chases its tail till all its spots fall off!

03-07-2002, 10:26 PM	#12
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	Perhaps agburanur is best suited to answer this last post. I am confused by cave thingies...? __________________ The guard stepped back and looked with amazement on Aragorn. `It seems that you are come on the wings of song out of the forgotten days,' he said. `It shall be, lord, as you command.'

03-08-2002, 05:00 AM	#13
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	Yeah, I was confused too but I didn't want to answer before you hama, it is your musical after all. I think it would be a mistake to have the set changing height depending on which character is on what part of it, it would get very complicated and silly. Better to establish height differences early on and let the sudience accept it. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

03-09-2002, 12:58 AM	#14
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	Agburanur, I think you are agreeing with me but I not certain. I don't envision the set changing heights beyond the use of hydraulics to create the illusion od ascent and descent while keeping the characters in the same position relative to the audience. As for waiting for me to answer, I would hope not. I will know I have created something special when discussions start taking shape without me being involved. There are so many interesting questions asked and so many great Tolkien fan's here that I would hope my work simply becomes a springboard for discussion. Brad __________________ The guard stepped back and looked with amazement on Aragorn. `It seems that you are come on the wings of song out of the forgotten days,' he said. `It shall be, lord, as you command.'

03-11-2002, 05:50 AM	#15
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	More than anything I don't think it's neccesary to have the set moving up and down, lighting and chracterisation can have just as good effects and be less comfusing. However I still feel that the pace that the story will have to go at to condense the story into 2/3 hours will mean that the set will need to be changing frequently and this would add to it's impressiveness and make the audience feel they really have been on a journey across the equivalent of most of Europe. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

03-12-2002, 02:08 PM	#16
Ararax Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NEW JERSEY! Posts: 375	you cut their legs off __________________ Woah Deep

03-12-2002, 07:12 PM	#17
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	No we save that fate for theatre critics. __________________ The guard stepped back and looked with amazement on Aragorn. `It seems that you are come on the wings of song out of the forgotten days,' he said. `It shall be, lord, as you command.'

03-15-2002, 05:07 AM	#18
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	You make them carry those sack things and have their feet in the sacks walking on their knees, like that circus group thing, can't remember what they're called. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

05-19-2002, 11:21 AM	#19
Faeirex Hobbit Join Date: May 2002 Location: A place inside my head, where none but myself dare go. Posts: 44	New plan: Why not just have all the other actors wearing stilts/platforms/similar? Galadriel wore platforms in the movie to bring her up to the right height, so it's been done before. That should sort out the height problems without going into midgets/children. They need the most talented actors/actresses possible to do the thing well, and it would really cut down on their options to have to find short people. ~Fae __________________ Am becoming disenchanted with palantir guy. Refuses to send me photo, except of one v. large eyeball. Says he is shy but I rather suspect he is fat, or perhaps hairy. Have heard some v. bad stories about palantir relationships. Should probably cool it for a while. Well, wouldn't you know, palantir guy turned out to be Dark Lord of Mordor. Just my luck. Could have been worse, I guess. Sauron not far or hairy, just disembodied force of evil. Must go now, have to raise massive demon army to scourge the earth. Also, have manicure appointment. Is no easy task keeping nails pointy. Am tired of climbing up and down eight million stairs just to taunt Gandalf. Should have imprisoned him in easy-access dungeon where could taunt more effectively, and would not have to wait until after breakfast. Have crossed orcs with goblin men in caverns below Isengard. V. tedious experience as orcs and goblin men most reluctant to breed, even with dinner and flowers. Next time will try something easier, such as breeding goblins and cheerleaders to create super-perky army that can travel by day and will not complain about pink uniforms. Did not know when decided to make demon army for Sauron that would be so darn messy. Curse my decision to be Saruman the White. Should have decided to be Saruman the Muddy Brown, or Saruman the Faintly Greenish. White just shows all the slime.

05-19-2002, 04:09 PM	#20
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	Sorry, but not a good plan! Firstly they would look like they had socking great shoes on, not very elegant eh? Also they wouldn't be able to have twirly fight scenes or even run away because they'd be tripping up. Also Galadriel wearing them in the film is a good reason not to have them. This musical has to be ORIGINAL, not a staged version of the film. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!! Last edited by Agburanar : 05-19-2002 at 04:12 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Maiar can be Hobbits, too!	Elanor the hobbit	Writer's Workshop	15	06-24-2007 05:48 PM
Some Questions Regarding States/Provinces	Dark Lord Sauron	Middle Earth	32	10-14-2004 03:37 PM
fighting hobbits	gimli7410	Lord of the Rings Books	17	03-10-2003 07:19 PM
Hobbit Questions	stelladeoro	The Hobbit (book)	5	09-24-2002 04:55 PM
Contentedness, homelessness and hobbits	Varda	The Hobbit (book)	11	07-25-2002 12:04 PM