Mooters' RotK reviews

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
hey, lets have a vote for best part in rotk.
i vote pippins song.

I vote for Theoden's speech and then the charge of the Rohirrim...

[Rían]

It looks like we're all pretty much in agreement here - I esp. agree with Elvengirl's and Falagar's reviews, except I didn't like Eowyn/Witchking as much as Elvengirl did. I'm just PROFOUNDLY grateful they didn't totally screw it up - it could have been a total PC-ish woman's lib commercial, but it was pretty good. I wish she would have had said more of her lines during that scene, tho.

Falagar - "Sauron the lighthousekeeper"! ROTFL!! And did you catch how when the tower was collapsing, the "eye" kept looking all around in horror, like it was trying to find a nice soft place to land? That made me cringe!

And I wish the Gollum/Frodo fight had Gollum's feet on the ground more - OK, we grasp the fact that Frodo is invisible, already - we don't need to have Gollum riding Frodo like a bronc rider, it got to be rather silly looking - put his feet on the ground, too!

Also I didn't like the country bumpkin depiction of Smeagol and Deagol at the beginning - they could have done it a lot better, IMO. And LOSE the stupid Twilight Zone music - ooooooEEEEEEEEEooooooo

But ... the charge of the Rohirrim was AWESOME! and Pippin's song was incredibly beautiful, and I like how PJ interweaved the pictures during the song, and actually restrained himself from showing any gore - it was MUCH more effective that way, IMO, showing the arrows flying thru the air, but cutting away before they hit anyone. And so many great lines straight from the book, tho often given to different speakers. And Sam carrying Frodo. The 3 1/2 hrs went by really fast - overall, very good, much better than TTT, IMO, and well worth going to again. And I plan to buy the extended edition, and hope for more good scenes there. IMO, both extended versions have been great improvements.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Surprisingly, for me, the most moving/favorite part is probably a PJ and/or P. Boyens, F. Walsh one not precisely in the book, Faramir leading the Gondor horse soldiers in the suicide attack on Osgiliath. It had an almost surreal feel, women tossing and handing flowers, people sadly watching, etc. And the combination of music (a dirge?), charge, and orc reaction was brilliant, only marred (slightly) by the overly played Denethor meal (still not sure whether I agreed with the tomato/blood symbolism, but the entire sequence, including Denethor, was a strong directorial/cinematic scene). And, as someone noted, adding to the effect by not showing the actual carnage. (Somewhat surprising, for PJ, but he deserves kudos for restraint, though I suspect Fran Walsh or P. Boyens was a strong factor).

[Agalayth]

I was completely blown away. I thought the whole relationship between Denethor and Faramir was wonderfully shown in the movie. I don't think that aspect could have been better.

[hectorberlioz]

And I wish the Gollum/Frodo fight had Gollum's feet on the ground more - OK, we grasp the fact that Frodo is invisible, already - we don't need to have Gollum riding Frodo like a bronc rider, it got to be rather silly looking - put his feet on the ground, too!

Rian m'dear, i share your sentiments here.
btw, i call that part the "ride 'im buckoe" part

Also I didn't like the country bumpkin depiction of Smeagol and Deagol at the beginning - they could have done it a lot better, IMO. And LOSE the stupid Twilight Zone music - ooooooEEEEEEEEEooooooo

yes, those two would be dumb and dumber, or harry and lloyd.

[Khamûl]

Well, I just got back from dragging my mom to see it, and surprisingly, the verdict is that she liked it. A lot. She didn't like FotR and hated TTT, but loved this one. I think her favorite part was the Paths of the Dead. It was my second viewing and it was just as good.

[Artanis]

I saw it on Wednesday evening and was completely overwhelmed, now I've calmed down and feel ready to give my two cents ... and be a bit more critical ...

First, the Sméagol & Déagol scene, I agree with RÃ*an, why make them seem so simple and stupid. But I liked the transformation from Sméagol into Gollum.

Theoden: He was awesome almost all the way, but why make him reluctant to come to Gondor's aid? The man was not stupid. He knew very well that Rohan would be next if Minas Tirith should fall.

I think the palantir scene was well done. I didn't mind the visual effects, the main thing from that scene was the terrible impact it had on Pippin, his fear and anguish.

Arwen: I liked her better in this movie than before. But I don't grasp the logic behind the idea that her fate should be linked to the fate of the Ring.

Elrond: I'm sorry to say so, but I still feel he's portrayed as a jerk. He reforges the sword, but I'm left with the impression that he does so only to save his daughter, and not for the case of Middle Earth. Gah.

Denethor was pictured as a madman, without any explanation of how he had become like that. Again I suppose it would work for the audience who is not familiar with the book, but for me it was just sad. And as for Gandalf beating him up, well, I think all that can be said about it is already said. It is too ugly.

Faramir was great in this movie. His hopeless and mad attempt to regain Osgiliath on his father's behalf and command was heartbreaking. You could see it on people's faces when the soldiers rode throught the streets of the city, everyone knew that they would not come back alive. The flowers ... it was in a strange way beauty among the despair. Pip's song was also a heartbreaker. I was surprised of Billy Boyd's beautiful voice.

I liked the pyre scene. Especially the expression on Faramir's face when he had been saved from the fire and Denethor called to him. I loved that.

Sam leaving Frodo: I suppose it works for those who has not read the book. But everyone who have would know that Sam would never have left Frodo. Never.

Battle scenes from Pelennor: Absolutely loved them. After reading all the spoilers, I'd expected the battle scenes to last longer than they actually did. When the army of the dead poured into Minas Tirith, I thought hey, is it already finished? Grond was awesome, so was the oliphaunt's attack. And the charge of the Rohirrim of course, which IMO was the best part of the whole movie, closely followed by Theoden's speech right before the attack. And Eomer, he looked exactly as fierce and fearless in the battle as he should be. There are of course some missing scenes there that I wish would be included, but it is a minor complaint, when that what is included was so well done.

The scenery was of course fantastic, as in FotR and TTT. The first sight of Minas Tirith was beautiful, and everything we saw of it from the inside, with all its details, was wonderful too. And also Minas Morgul was very well made.

I don't have time to write more at the moment, except to say there were so many goodies in this movie: Shelob, Sam and Frodo at Mount Doom, the eagles, the Paths of the Dead, Anduril for Aragorn, Eowyn vs. WK, Merry, Aragorn at the Black gate, Grey Havens, coronation, the praise of the Hobbits. And I'm sure there are more which I don't remember at the moment. More later perhaps.

[Artanis]

Another thing, the omission of Saruman's death, the scouring and the Faramir & Eowyn romance didn't bug me at the moment as much as I expected. But it was a weakness not to explain how Eowyn could go from being all teared apart and desperate after being rejected by Aragorn, to being seemingly happy and joyful at his coronation and his wedding with Arwen. I also felt that the fate of Eomer and the kingdom of Rohan should have been declared, it would have been so nice to see Eomer as king of Rohan and see a new and strong union between Gondor and Rohan established.

And what about Legolas and Gimli? What happened to them? I would appreciate to know, if only through a spoken sentence. I suppose we're left to think they just returned to their homes. A little lame, imo.

[Elvengirl]

My thoughts exactly. I think all those loose ends will be tied up in the Extended, but I don't see why there couldn't be even a small clip explaining what happened to them, especially Legolas and Gimli since they were a part of the fellowship.

[Dúnedain]

It's funny, something Artanis made me think of. She mentioned how Denethor when on the pyre and Faramir pulled off it. Denethor looks at Faramir and calls his name, kinda like saying "I'm sorry, I do love you". Now thinking back on that scene, it is a parallel to Boromir as well, such as when Boromir snapped out of it after trying to take the ring from Frodo.

It's as if they both at those dreaded times, realized their wrongs and broke through the evil that, for a time, corrupted their judgements. I think that is a wonderful parallel. The fact that Gandalf tells Faramir that his father loves him and he will realize it when it is too late. Denethor does, and that look to Faramir shows it. Same thing with Boromir, he feels the mistake he made through the temptation for the ring, thus trying to make it up to Frodo, even though it is too late.

I do have to say, PJ has shown many little subtley's that we sometimes overlook, unless you watch things a couple times, think about the movies a lot or catch them when they happen. Still though, my favorite little thing he added was the exchange with Elrond and Aragorn at the Dunharrow encampment, when they exchange the last words Aragorn's mother spoke to him...

[hectorberlioz]

if the extended edition scenes are good, i'll be happier. and will be easier on accepting the changes.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Artanis
Arwen: I liked her better in this movie than before. But I don't grasp the logic behind the idea that her fate should be linked to the fate of the Ring.

The way someone explained it to me made sense, but I still have my problems. They said that it's not a direct relation. If the Ring isn't destroyed, Sauron will win the war. If he wins, then more likely than not he'll have to kill Aragorn to do it. If Aragorn dies, Arwen will die of a broken heart. That makes perfect sense, but if it's what the filmmakers were trying to get across, they should have made it clearer. It does seem that Arwen is dying because the Ring hasn't been destroyed.

Musings upon a third viewing: I stand by my "Wow". One question though: when Gandalf and Pippin first ride into Minas Tirith, there is a shot of these white banners hanging. On the banners is the White Tree and the Seven Stars. However, there is also a crown. The same design is used at Aragorn's coronation. Why would they have the symbol of the King on a banner in Minas Tirith if he hasn't returned and declared himself yet?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Still though, my favorite little thing he added was the exchange with Elrond and Aragorn at the Dunharrow encampment, when they exchange the last words Aragorn's mother spoke to him...

Yes, I agree, it was a touching moment. It is a special goody for the part of the audience who has read the book. I wonder what the other part of the audience think of Aragorn's words? If they think anything at all.

Did someone mention the small things which were repeated from previous movies, but in another context? Example: The words Sam spoke to Frodo on the edge of the fires of Mount Doom was the very words that Elrond spoke to Isildur on the same spot. And the kiss Sam recieved from Frodo at the Grey Havens resembles the kiss Galadriel gave to Frodo in Lórien. Another shot of Eowyn standing in front of Meduseld, but this time she's waiting for Aragorn to return from isengard.

Khamûl: Three times already? Wow.

[azalea]

I'm still sick, but slowly recuperating.

I had a couple of things to add to what I said, and will probably have more to add later.

I agree with MM's review when he states how the major flaw is the lack of continuity. It was choppy, and elements are brought in and others left out that have no context, or were left unresolved (a lot of which have already been mentioned). I think that this will be fixed in the EE for the most part, but it would have been better to just leave out certain things and leave others in. It's almost as if they had gotten so close to and enmeshed in the work that they forgot or didn't recognize that certain things didn't fit or were left hanging, and needed an outside party to "proofread and revise" or something.

See, this is an example of the problem I had: TTT went to great lengths to establish Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn, but then in RotK, we get a brief blurb from Aragron ("you don't really love me") and it's as if she says "oh, okay." Then nothing more is said about the matter, and we get no resolution by having the Faramir aspect come in. So my question is, why include the whole Eowyn likes Aragorn thing so heavily in the TT TE if you know you won't have time to give it as much attention in the RotK TE? I know the answer is probably that they didn't know when finishing TTT that they weren't going to have time, but really, I think they could have figured it out. I think this was one of the major directorial flaws, that the attempt to provide continuity seemed slipshod, that there didn't seem to be a clear vision of the future releases before the first ones were made, and as a result they kept having to change things. Thus the final product was made to feel disjointed, although still incredible and enjoyable. But it just seems they could have decided what to include in the RotK TE based on what they'd focused on in the TT TE. Heck, I could almost see the Paths of the Dead being left out in favor of some of that type of thing, because the audience had no previous "contact" with that, and then it could have been added to the EE.

I think the following things will be included in the EE (I know I'll forget some I've thought of):
Houses of the Healing/ Eowyn and Faramir
Ghan buri Ghan
the "little orcs" getting caught up in the marching armies
Sam's song (please please )
the Mouth of Sauron
probably more tacked on to the end, resolving some unanswered questions (what happened to Legolas and Gimli?)
and of course, the Saruman/ Wormtongue scenes

I think the inclusion of these and other scenes will aid a lot in providing relief from that choppy, disjointed feel, and will also remedy the "time" problems MM mentioned in his review.

Again, I hate to be so critical of a movie I loved, but I just felt I needed to get it off my chest, and hey, what better place than here?

[LutraMage]

Right, just saw it today and am absolutely delighted - a fantastic cinematic event which easily surpasses my previous all time favourite film going experience (the original showing of Star Wars - yes I am that old!)

Let's get the gripes out of the way. But before I do, let me remind myself that THIS IS NOT THE BOOK. Of course it jars when a scene is not as we remember it from the book, but overall the changes were more than exceptable. Three things did, however, greatly disappoint me.

The most significant was the treatment of Denethor. Gone all his nobility, the devastation of his hopes (both public - the belief that Gondor would fall - and personal - the death of Boromir) and the way in which he was duped by Sauron with the Palantir were entirely missing and this character was stripped of everything that made his final descent into madness understandable. Instead, what we got was a foolish, borish, madman who could never have led a city of the size of Gondor for more than a week. Very poor.

The other two points I didn't like: firstly, the split between Frodo and Sam - this ran far too far against the whole point of their unbreakable friendship and love as depicted in the book; and secondly, Smeagol's tale - the special effects in the water were very poor and I really didn't belive that Smeagol was actually strangling Deagol, I think the whole scene could have been left out to make room for Saruman or the Eowyn/Faramir love story.

And now for the good points MOST OF THE REST OF THE FILM! As has already been said, the charge of the Rohirrim must rank amongst the greatest movie battle scenes I have ever seen. The city of Minas Tirith couldn't have been closer to how I had imagined it and couldn't have seemed more real! The death of the Lord of the Nazgul was perfect. Pippin, Merry, Eowyn, Sam, Frodo - great acting, great story adaptation!

There was so much that was excellent in this film. Not many people have mentioned the Gollum CGI in this film - we've already become used to the fact that it is done so well that we overlook the brilliance of the movie work here. Yes sure, some of the other animation (notably some of the mumak work, Legolas as Tarzan, and some of the flying scenes) were not of such believable high standards, but in general it was awsome. The flying rocks, the severed heads, some of the stamping and tusk swinging mumak scenes, the Oathbreakers, the lava flows and eruption of Mount Doom were just amazing.

Marks out of 10 - why, 10 of course! The strengths of this film simply overshadowed and brushed aside the few weaknesses. Can't wait for the EE.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by azalea
See, this is an example of the problem I had: TTT went to great lengths to establish Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn, but then in RotK, we get a brief blurb from Aragron ("you don't really love me") and it's as if she says "oh, okay." Then nothing more is said about the matter, and we get no resolution by having the Faramir aspect come in. So my question is, why include the whole Eowyn likes Aragorn thing so heavily in the TT TE if you know you won't have time to give it as much attention in the RotK TE? I know the answer is probably that they didn't know when finishing TTT that they weren't going to have time, but really, I think they could have figured it out. I think this was one of the major directorial flaws, that the attempt to provide continuity seemed slipshod, that there didn't seem to be a clear vision of the future releases before the first ones were made, and as a result they kept having to change things. Thus the final product was made to feel disjointed, although still incredible and enjoyable. But it just seems they could have decided what to include in the RotK TE based on what they'd focused on in the TT TE. Heck, I could almost see the Paths of the Dead being left out in favor of some of that type of thing, because the audience had no previous "contact" with that, and then it could have been added to the EE.

How can you say you'd rather have Paths of the Dead left out for Eowyn's love story? Her love story is basically meaningless in the whole realm of things, whereas the Paths of the Dead is one of the biggest moments in the story in turning the tide for the side of good...

[Dreran the Green]

ok, I saw it Friday night, and I was really scared that it would get chopped up and mutilated by PJ and others, but I am in love with it. It had a some things left out that I'd been looking forward to (the mouth of Sauron in particular) , and the army of oathbreakers reminded me of Ghostbusters just a little....but I thought it was fantastic!! The ending really got me crying, and I don't get moved to tears easy. Especially loved the parts where Sam carries Frodo up Mt. Doom, and when Gandalf comes and saves them with the eagles. Ian McKellen was great through the whole movie, and I can't wait for the extended DVD!

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Artanis
Khamûl: Three times already? Wow.

Yeah. Kinda sad, isn't it? Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. Now I have no money left.

One of my good friends really really liked this movie. He said that he didn't cry until Aragorn's line "My friends, you bow to no one." Two thumbs up from Jim.

Return of the King: Grown men have been known to weep at its magnificence.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by azalea
I agree with MM's review when he states how the major flaw is the lack of continuity. It was choppy, and elements are brought in and others left out that have no context, or were left unresolved (a lot of which have already been mentioned).

I'll third that. Really dire editing spoiled it for me. There's no way this film can win an oscar (unless there's one for Best Mumakil-Slaying).

The actors had no chance to show what they could do. Apart from Frodo/Sam, it was just a succession of one-liners. No wonder Christopher Lee didn't turn up for the premiere.

They should've changed it more, IMO, so as to have a proper film.

And every time I saw Minas Tirith from a distance, I had that bloke from Monty Python and the Holy Grail inside my head going "it's just a model".

Disappointed

[Elvengirl]

I'm sorry you didn't like it Gaffer.

I didn't feel that the movie was choppy at all, maybe it was a bit rushed, but other than that the editing was great. Yes, there were some flaws and I think the altering of some scenes were the major mistakes. Plus any scene that needs to be included will be in the Extended.