What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands

[Ossë]

I often wonder what the balrog would have done say if the company had perished in the mines and he had obtained the ring. Would he have keep it for himself? He was probably powerful enough to use it. Or would the ring hold no temptation for him, for he himself is much older than the ring? Would he then have given it to sauron desiring a return to the dark days and thinking that this was the best way to do it? In fact, did he even know sauron was still about? Was the balrog even aware of anything to do with the rings at all, being underground for so long. Although i would think that the balrog would be sensitive enough, indeed even familiar enough to some extent with the evilness and the power of the ring even if he had never known of it before. I wonder what would happen if sauron and the balrog had meet. I am sure i remeber reading somewhere, i think in UT, where gandalf said that it was possible that smaug and sauron would 'help' each other. Therefore i would assume the same would be true of the balrog. Could the balrog consider sauron a worthy master and become a servent of him? Or would he see him merely as a fellow former servant of the same master?

[hectorberlioz]

Hmm....well, as far as I know, balrogs were rebellious elves.
So I doubt if they would go on anyone's side except their own.
As for if the moria balrog had obtained the ring, no doubt he would have dominated middle-earth with it.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ossë
I often wonder what the balrog would have done say if the company had perished in the mines and he had obtained the ring. Would he have keep it for himself? He was probably powerful enough to use it. Or would the ring hold no temptation for him, for he himself is much older than the ring? Would he then have given it to sauron desiring a return to the dark days and thinking that this was the best way to do it? In fact, did he even know sauron was still about? Was the balrog even aware of anything to do with the rings at all, being underground for so long. Although i would think that the balrog would be sensitive enough, indeed even familiar enough to some extent with the evilness and the power of the ring even if he had never known of it before. I wonder what would happen if sauron and the balrog had meet. I am sure i remeber reading somewhere, i think in UT, where gandalf said that it was possible that smaug and sauron would 'help' each other. Therefore i would assume the same would be true of the balrog. Could the balrog consider sauron a worthy master and become a servent of him? Or would he see him merely as a fellow former servant of the same master?

It is interesting, and I must say I haven't thought about the Rign with the Balrog.

Would the balrog know what the ring is? I think so. He probably knew Sauron, and the Ring is made of Sauron's power. Also, orcs that came after the second age would know about the Ring and would probably tell the balrog.
I don't think he would be tempted to wear it... for me, it seems like saying that a maia would be tempted to the Ring, although the Balrogs were wicker than a maia in his 'natural' form (it is said Balrgos are maiar).
I think... that because Sauron was the leader, the balrog would see him as his master.

Just my thoughts...

[Olmer]

The Balrog you are talking about was one of Udun dark spirits which survived after the War of Jewels. It 's unclear were they had been created by Morgoth or just summoned by him, but obviously they accepted him as the ONLY Master . I don't think that surviving Balrog was interested in any associations with Sauron.He clearly shows his neutrality through the whole history of events, but I also don't think that giving a chance to get the Ring he would submit it to Sauron.
Actually I think that Sauron would have a pretty tough time trying to get it out of Balrog. After all, they both are Maya and standing on the same level. Balrog would kneel down for Morgoth, but for Sau - never! This why Sauron can't use Moria tunnels for his military plans.
In my HO the disappearance of 7 Dwarf's rings could be attributed to Durin's Bane.I think the Rings (includung the One)didn't have any temptation on him, but as magic seekers of powerful keeper they had some powerful "pull". After thousand years of pleasant slumber all of the sudden Balrog again felt the familiar with Rings of Power "pull" and came out to deal with it.
Not in the means to obtain it to wield a power, but in the means to end an unpleasant feeling.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
The Balrog you are talking about was one of Udun dark spirits which survived after the War of Jewels. It 's unclear were they had been created by Morgoth or just summoned by him, but obviously they accepted him as the ONLY Master . I don't think that surviving Balrog was interested in any associations with Sauron.He clearly shows his neutrality through the whole history of events, but I also don't think that giving a chance to get the Ring he would submit it to Sauron.
Actually I think that Sauron would have a pretty tough time trying to get it out of Balrog. After all, they both are Maya and standing on the same level. Balrog would kneel down for Morgoth, but for Sau - never! This why Sauron can't use Moria tunnels for his military plans.
In my HO the disappearance of 7 Dwarf's rings could be attributed to Durin's Bane.I think the Rings (includung the One)didn't have any temptation on him, but as magic seekers of powerful keeper they had some powerful "pull". After thousand years of pleasant slumber all of the sudden Balrog again felt the familiar with Rings of Power "pull" and came out to deal with it.
Not in the means to obtain it to wield a power, but in the means to end an unpleasant feeling.

As I say I do think the Balrog would see Sauron as his master.
Hoe else could Sauron promise the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain Moria if they told him where the Ring is?
Sauron was vthe greater in Morgoth's servents. I think the balrgos, therefore, sees him as the one who continues Morgoth's lead - like the orcs.
I didn't see the balrog as neutral, I don't think he attacked the orcs from Mordor that wer ethere, but he did attack the fellowship.

Sauron is stronger than the Balrogs. Even the maia between themselves ar enot equal. Sauron was a strong maia, no doubts... and it seems that the Balrogs are wickened, when they become 'Balrgos'. For example, they can die.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
.
Hoe else could Sauron promise the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain Moria if they told him where the Ring is?

WHAT are you talking about?

I didn't see the balrog as neutral, I don't think he attacked the orcs from Mordor that wer ethere, but he did attack the fellowship.

He did not attack the fellowship, he just followed them.

You didn't see his neutrality because you are reading without summorizing the facts, just skimming over...

Barlogs mortality still debatable, as spirits they can loose their physical forms without being completly nullified.
But personally I don't give a damn if they are mortal or not.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
WHAT you are talking about?

in the council of Elrond:

As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this: that you should find this thief, and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it,[...] and the realm of Moria shall be yours forever.

He did not attack the fellowship, he just followed them.

You didn't see his neutrality because you are reading without summorizing the facts, just skimming over...

Barlogs mortality still debatable, as spirits they can loose they physical forms withou being completly nullified.
But personally I don't give a damn about if they are mortal or not. [/B]

So you're saying he would just let them leave if Gandalf hadn't faught him?

Yes - but maiar can have another physical forms, and you don't see new Balrogs reviving do you?

[Vicky]

I read somewhere that Sauron told the Balrog to follow the fellowship, so if that's true, if would have given the ring to sauron.
Sauron was also a "servant" of Morgoth, but after the Valar captured Morgoth, Sauron took the place off Morgoth. Many off the orcs accpeted him as their master, so the Balrog may have done the same...

[Olmer]

About Dwarves reason of attending the Council of Elrond I have quite different POV...

But let me make a statement: MORIA NEVER BELONGED TO SAURON!
Tolkien himself wrote it in plain language.
This is a little deviation from the book to back it up: “…Sauron was plotting a war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to REGAIN THE LAND OF ANGMAR AND NORTHERN PASSES in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills.”(LOTR,appendix A,Durin’s folk)
This is from the conversation between Gandalf and Thorin in the “Prancing Pony”. Thorin seems very easy and naturally accepting Sauron's need of the northern passes to get the only access to Eriador.
And this is, indeed, not a nonsence. It is straightforwardly being told to us, that Sauron cann't use comfortable, warm and dry Moria's tunnels. It is another owner over there.
The history of Middle-earth would be going in different direction if it would be the other way .
But to everybodydy’s gladness Balrog didn’t have any intentions to leave the comfortable caves. And even more than that he didn’t want to participate in somebody’s stupid quarrels, where (who knows?) you even can get killed…

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
So you're saying he would just let them leave if Gandalf hadn't faught him?

If it would not be for the Ring , he wouldn't give a damn about a few more wanderers in vast Moria tunnels.
The Ring is a device which tuned to attract persons with power, it doesn't see the difference between Elf , Man or Beast. As it sense the power it starts to emit the "pull" according the power measure of prospective possessor. And lo!, mighty Balrog - what a catch!.
I imagine the pull was enormous to make Balrog uncomfortable and seek the source of nagging symptoms.
He would definately get a possession of the ring( killing in process the Fellowship), but then he would just try to bury it somewhere, preferably as far from the place of his dwelling as it could be possible.
This way the ring would be, probably, much safer hidden than in the depth of the ocean , or even in Valinor.

[Radagast The Brown]

Does Moria called as a path in the mounatians for an army, though? I think it would be very hard to pass in there for Sauron, and he also could be ambushed when some of his army in inside the cave and be stucked there, if the gate had collapsed. That's why I don't think Gandalf thought SAuron would go in that way.

I can't sse how does the Iron Mountains stand between Sauron's way to Angmar, too.

About the balrog... maybe you're right. I don't believe so, but I can't see any problem with it.

[Ossë]

I can see your point about the balrog not been worried about a few more people wandering about. Something of the balrogs level is not going to be concerned about a few people and probably not bother to greet them himself. But in this case I don't think the ring made any difference, the balrog would have found and attacked them anyway. I think it was when the rumour reached him from the orcs, about the strange nature of the party and in particular gandalf, his curiosity was aroused. The balrog was a sworn enemy of the forces of light you might say and a loyal servent of morgoth. No doubt the balrog was dismayed when morgoth perished, as sauron was, and would carry a bitter hatred against them, if indeed the hatred he already bore was not enough. The balrog clearly sensed that gandalf in particular was a servent of the light, the very same force that killed his master, and immediatey rose to the challenge of facing him. The balrog probably hadn't faced someone of gandalfs stature for many years, maybe even as far back as the great war itself, when the balrog had fled. It must have been strange for the balrog to suddenly be confronted with one who so clearly and so directly served the light. It probably brought back bitter memories. As to what he would have done with the ring i am still not sure.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The balrog was not an enslaved will such as the Nazgul. If he obtained the the ring, he would have kept it for himself. He was of the more powerful Maiar that followed Melkor, similar in rank (under Moergoth) to Sauron. The chief of the Balrogs (not this one) was Morgoth's highest war captain. This creature, acustomed to power would have given over, the ring.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
The balrog was not an enslaved will such as the Nazgul. If he obtained the the ring, he would have kept it for himself. He was of the more powerful Maiar that followed Melkor, similar in rank (under Moergoth) to Sauron. The chief of the Balrogs (not this one) was Morgoth's highest war captain. This creature, acustomed to power would have given over, the ring.

But in the Silmarillion, Valaquenta, it is told that Sauron was the greatest of all the servents of Morgoth. Wouldn't it make him higher in rank then a Balrog, not even the head of them?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Sauron in Beleriand is, I think, second in power and rank of the bad guys (recall his occupying Tol-in Gaurhoth and seeking to capture Luthien and kill Huan) but with the loss of much of his power into the ring it seems a debatable point whether the surviving balrog, clearly not originally the most powerfu of the balrogs, was a match for Sauron (given that Sauron directly controlled the nazgul).

[Earniel]

I have often wondered about the intelligence of balrogs, in my opinion they didn't have that much of it. There seems to be no will in them to reign vast number of people, to wage great wars, no gift of clever speech. I often wondered whether the avarage balrog could do much more, intellectually speaking, than devise tactics on a battlefield. The balrogs have incredible power and that makes them formidable opponents, but it's the fysical kind of power, not the mental one.

In that light the Moria-balrog would pay little attention to the Ring. (If he could even see it, compared to his own size the Ring must have been tiny.) He could perhaps feel the strenght of the Ring, but I doubt he would have wholy understood its significance or actually could have been corrupted into greed to keep it for himself. If the Fellowship had perished in Moria, I assume it would have been a mere orc that robbed the Ring from the corpses and brought it to its master.

It would also fit with the fact that the balrog didn't feature much in Sauron's plans of dominion. I think the balrog would have answered Sauron if Sauron had demanded his services, but Sauron did not and I think for a good reason. The threat of an alliance between Smaug and Sauron was far more plausible and dangerous. Dragons like Smaug (apart from the fact that they so obviously rock ) have a sharp intelligence, and more scheeming in them. They have a silver (albeit poisonous) tongue. In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve, IMHO.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I have often wondered about the intelligence of balrogs, in my opinion they didn't have that much of it.
The threat of an alliance between Smaug and Sauron was far more plausible and dangerous.
In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve, IMHO.

I just wanted to tell that that alliance Sauron and Dragons ( if any would survive) would be more effective than collaboration with wery powerful , but simple-minded balrog, who ,in the way like ferocious big dog, was avoided becase you 'd never know what to expect from him in the next second.
But you already said it even in better way. Thank you.

[The Gaffer]

There's not much evidence about what balrogs were actually like, though I agree with you, Earniel, that they may have been like big, ferocious dogs.

The scene that sticks in my mind from the Silmarillion is how the balrogs rescued Morgoth from Ungoliant, so clearly they would be enemies to be reckoned with. However, there's also the moment in FOTR when the balrog seizes the door-handle, perceives Gandalf, and comes up with a "counter-spell". That would imply that they have some sort of intelligence.

So yes, Sauron would be afraid of the Moria balrog I reckon. Being maiar, they would be indomitable.

What if he had got the Ring? Since the Ring grants power according to the measure of its bearer, it's hard to say without knowing more about what balrogs are about.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Barogs were the chief commanders of Morgoth, along with Sauron, and other coverted Maiar, and were not simple minded.

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
But in the Silmarillion, Valaquenta, it is told that Sauron was the greatest of all the servents of Morgoth. Wouldn't it make him higher in rank then a Balrog, not even the head of them?

Greastest servant does not equal Chief Captain of Angband, as Gothmog, lord of Balrogs is so titled.

Originally posted by Eärniel
It would also fit with the fact that the balrog didn't feature much in Sauron's plans of dominion. I think the balrog would have answered Sauron if Sauron had demanded his services, .

Qutie the opposite in my view, it was because of the Balrogs personal power, will, and intelect, that Sauron could not control him, at least, not without the ring.

[Brimstone]

Ossë
"Or would the ring hold no temptation for him, for he himself is much older than the ring?"


Gandalf was older than the ring.

Ossë
"Would he then have given it to sauron desiring a return to the dark days and thinking that this was the best way to do it? "


No. No. No. No. In possessing the Ring he wouldn't need to give it to Sauron to have a return of the dark days; he had the power in his hand.

Ossë
"In fact, did he even know Sauron was still about?"


In the last days of the wars of the Orcs and Dwarfs the Balrog came to the bridge of KHAZA-DUM so the Dwarfs could not enter Moria, (in the Silmarillion, when Dain stood at the gate of Moria.)

He also came to the chamber of records and killed Balin's folk, (in the FOTR it said the walls in the chamber of records seemed to be scorched with flame.) The book they kept said, "A shadow moves in the dark."

It would seem that the Balrog ordered his orcs to build the dam on the Western side of Moria to trap the Dwarfs in Moria or drive them out the way they came, But he knew of the Elven door that would be above the lake, so it seems that he drove the Watcher out into the lake.

These incidents show that the Balrog had ways of getting news.
And he could not have missed the small band of Orcs that bore the emblem of the Eye, since they were at the chamber of records at the same time.

Also Gandalf said that Sauron highly coveted Moria, not only because of the orc-soldiers he could get there but because of Mithril. He made the orcs of Moria give all the pre-mined Mithril to him as tribute.

Radagast The Brown
"I think... that because Sauron was the leader, the balrog would see him as his master."


Since Gandalf said that Sauron coveted Moria, that means that Moria wasn't his, that means that Moria belonged to the Balrog, and since Sauron had Orcs in Moria its not to much to asume that Sauron would have demanded Moria from the Balrog, and Moria still wasn't Sauron's at the time of the FOTR, that mins that the Balrog sad no.

Olmer
"I think the Rings (includung the One)didn't have any temptation on him," (the Balrog)


Everyone who came into contact with the Ring was tempted
so it is a pretty far jump to suppose that the Balrog wasn't temptid by the Ring.

Radagast The Brown
"As I say I do think the Balrog would see Sauron as his master. Hoe else could Sauron promise the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain Moria if they told him where the Ring is?"


Uhhhhhh... he lied?

Radagast The Brown
"Sauron was (vthe) greater in Morgoth's servents. I think the balrgos, therefore, sees him as the one who continues Morgoth's lead - like the orcs. "

the orcs are not a good example. If you are evil and can intimidate them they will follow your orders.

Olmer
"He did not attack the fellowship, he just followed them."

At the bridge of KHAZA-DUM He attacked Gandalf when all Gandalf had done was say "You cannot pass."

Vicky
"Many off the orcs accpeted him as their master, so the Balrog may have done the same..."

Again the orcs are not a good example.

"But let me make a statement: MORIA NEVER BELONGED TO SAURON!
Tolkien himself wrote it in plain language.
This is a little deviation from the book to back it up: “…Sauron was plotting a war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to REGAIN THE LAND OF ANGMAR AND NORTHERN PASSES in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills.”(LOTR,appendix A,Durin’s folk)
This is from the conversation between Gandalf and Thorin in the “Prancing Pony”. Thorin seems very easy and naturally accepting Sauron's need of the northern passes to get the only access to Eriador.
And this is, indeed, not a nonsence. It is straightforwardly being told to us, that Sauron cann't use comfortable, warm and dry Moria's tunnels. It is another owner over there.
The history of Middle-earth would be going in different direction if it would be the other way .
But to everybodydy’s gladness Balrog didn’t have any intentions to leave the comfortable caves. And even more than that he didn’t want to participate in somebody’s stupid quarrels, where (who knows?) you even can get killed..."

Encore! Encore! Encore!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Barogs were the chief commanders of Morgoth, along with Sauron, and other coverted Maiar, and were not simple minded.

Greastest servant does not equal Chief Captain of Angband, as Gothmog, lord of Balrogs is so titled.

Doesn't it?
The Chief Captain of Morgoth's armies doesn't mean he's not servent of Morgoth.

Originally posted by Brimstone
Since Gandalf said that Sauron coveted Moria, that means that Moria wasn't his, that means that Moria belonged to the Balrog, and since Sauron had Orcs in Moria its not to much to asume that Sauron would have demanded Moria from the Balrog, and Moria still wasn't Sauron's at the time of the FOTR, that mins that the Balrog sad no.

Can you quote where Gandalf says it? I'm not saying you're wrong, just not sure... I've heard he said so.

Uhhhhhh... he lied?

Yeah, I obviously thought about that. But since I was arguing with Olmer, and he always take quotes from evil/insane characters and build on them his arguments, I let myself to assume he was talking the truth.

the orcs are not a good example. If you are evil and can intimidate them they will follow your orders.

Perhaps not. But Balrogs wanted power, that's why they went with Melkor in the first place - why wouldn't they come to Sauron, which was stronger than it?