Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings

Comic Book Guy · 09-21-2001, 05:24 PM

I found this while going through TORN Green books. You can get the orignal here

There has been talk that Star Wars was based loosely (or inspired by) the great Tolkien trilogy, Lord of the Rings. As a fan of both, I’m going to list some of the instances where Star Wars might have been influenced by Lord of the Rings.

I’m just going to concentrate on the original three movies (ANH, TESB, ROTJ). Both are trilogies (of course), both are classic stories of good versus evil. The evil in the Lord of the Rings (the ring) is destroyed when it is thrown down a long chasm in the heart of the evil empire (Mount Doom in the Land of Mordor). The evil in Star Wars (the emperor) is destroyed when he is tossed down a large hole in his home base (the Death Star).

Now, the characters.

Luke Skywalker is loosely based on Frodo. Both are the central figures, both possess more power than either of them ever really thought. And both are under enormous pressure to “go to the Dark Side”. The power of the ring could give Frodo unlimited power, but, through tremendous will, he resists its evil offerings. Likewise with Luke, where the power of the Dark Side must be resisted or the resistance will fall.

Princess Leia is based, loosely, on Frodo’s sidekick Sam Gamgee. Of course, Leia starts off as a powerful Princess, while Sam is a simple gardener, but there paths become similar. Both discover they have access to the same power that Frodo and Luke have, yet both are loyal and pure of heart, and are easily able to resist it. This is a very loose basing.

Han Solo is based on the character of Strider or Aragorn. Both are loners, wanderers, who come off as scoundrels. As Luke first met Han at a cantina, Frodo first met Aragorn at the inn of the Prancing Pony (a bar). Like Luke, Frodo unwillingly took the mysterious stranger along. And, of course, in both instances a great friendship developed. Also, both Han Solo and Aragorn were not what they appeared, as Solo became the general and one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and Aragorn, of course, was revealed to be the king, leader of the resistance against Sauron.

Obi Wan Kenobi is based on Gandalf. This is the most obvious. As Obi-Wan was a spiritual advisor to Luke, Gandalf was one to Frodo. Both fell in the first episode of the trilogy while in enemy territory (Gandalf in Moria , Obi-Wan in the Death Star). Both returned in the second installment, Gandalf brought back to life, Obi-Wan returning as a ghost. Both were instrumental in keeping their protégés from going to the Dark Side. Both appeared as wise old men, in flowing robes, who were greater than they appeared to be.

C3PO and R2D2 were loosely based on the hobbits Merry and Pippen. Both sets provided comic relief, both were an (almost) inseperable duo, both spent the first half of the trilogy getting in the way, and both proved instrumental in the end.

There are others. Lando Calrissien (sp) could be based loosely on Faramir or Eomer. The Emperor is kind of a combination of Sauron and Saruman. Stormtroopers are like orcs, but the biggest, and most surprising, is this:

Darth Vader is based on Gollum. Seriously. The six-foot-seven, Dark Lord of the Sith, ever powerful is based on the little, slimy, wiggling worm Gollum. Both started out good, both with different names (Smeagol and Anakin). Both succumbed to the dark power that their counterparts (Luke and Frodo) were able to resist. Both were spared by their counterparts (Frodo spared Gollum on numerous occasions, Luke refused to kill Vader and tossed away his lightsaber at the end of ROTJ). And while Luke and Frodo were the heroes of the story, it was Vader and Gollum, respectively, that redeemed themselves by destroying the evil in the end. Vader, of course, tossed the Emperor into the shaft, costing him his life, while it was Gollum who lost his life by seizing the ring and falling into the Cracks of Doom. Also, don’t forget that while Vader was Luke’s father, Gollum was of a race that was ancestors of Frodo’s race.

***IronParrot*** · 09-23-2001, 02:21 AM

While SW was definitely influenced by LOTR (George Lucas was an LOTR fan, and once planned to film the books himself), I think this comparison goes too far - or maybe not far enough.

It's been similarly said about comparisons between LOTR and the Second World War that: If you're going to make allegorical equal-sign comparisons, they had better work universally. I believe there's a quote from Tom Shippey on this but I can't find it at this precise moment.

I think SW is based on LOTR in this way:

Dark Side of the Force = The One Ring

... and all related themes.

That's all. Every other comparison can be derived from that, and virtually all of them are from a thematic perspective. There are many, and I'll point them out some other time.

Now to take apart the flaws in guy's arguments one by one:

First of all, to take only the completed SW Classic Trilogy is a limited perspective that does not encompass all the developing themes in the saga. Secondly, LOTR is not a trilogy. It is one novel often published in three volumes. If you wanted to divide it up, it's actually evidently in six parts, not three. Star Wars: we do not know at this time whether it is going to end up being a single congruent six-episode saga, or a two-part saga where each part has three episodes. Also, the idea of a "classic story of good versus evil" is certainly debatable: although I will not demonstrate the specifics here, it is arguable that short of the Dark Side and its counterpart the One Ring, absolute evil isn't even represented.

The Luke-Frodo comparison isn't really a comparison between Luke and Frodo, but rather just the situations they are both placed in. Again, this is a comparison of the Dark Side and the One Ring, NOT the involved characters. It is similarly arguable that neither Frodo nor Luke are clearly central characters; doing so is an interpretation of either story under a limited scope. Also, the most major difference here is that at the critical moment, Luke defied the Dark Side, while Frodo embraced the power of the Ring.

The Leia-Sam comparison: It is not demonstrated what the similarities in their paths are. This is a trivial comparison at best, and is looser than just loose.

The Han-Aragorn and Ben-Gandalf comparisons are justified a little better, and could definitely be supported with a little more digging, but no clear evidence suggests that one was based on another; it is entirely possible, and perhaps likely, that they simply have similar origins in the classic concept of a mythology itself.

The rest of the comparisons are also a little weak: it is perhaps possible to strengthen them with more detail in the justification, but that would involve the elimination of the distinct and highly likely possibility that Tolkien and Lucas merely based minor characters on less

The Vader-Gollum comparison simply does not hold up. All the similarities are, once again, similarities between the Dark Side and the One Ring. While Vader redeemed himself, Gollum perished because of the power of the Ring. Did Gollum intentionally escape his corruption and destroy the Ring? Highly doubtful; Gollum wouldn't intentionally destroy his Precious in a thousand Ages, and he had no motive to support such an action anyway.

There are many similarities between LOTR and SW, but once again, they are thematic. The conclusions here simply pick out the wrong comparisons in an often trivial manner. Overall, they are just too far-reaching and insufficiently justified.

ryan · 09-27-2001, 10:42 PM

this is starting to look like that SW-LoTR comparison ben had on his old site, before he remodeled for this 'tolkien trail' thing

webwizard333 · 09-30-2001, 10:58 AM

Hmmmm, Vader and Gollum.... I never thought of it before. In a way, it does make sense.

XRogue · 10-18-2001, 11:16 AM

Actually, during this last summer, I visited a Star Wars exhibit at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, and the info they had at the exhibit quoted GL as saying he had borrowed heavily
from LOTR. No specifics, just that one statement, and then the separate parts of the exhibit talking about the hero's quest from classical literature. The Hero, the Mentor, the Labyrinth and that stuff.

On a side note, this exhibit was spectacular. It was on loan from the Smithsonian and they had some cool stuff. The original Yoda puppet from ESB, the Vader suit, the Star Destroyer and the SSD Executor, Vader's ship that were used in shooting and the Artoo and C3PO costumes to name a few. It was fascinating and well worth the 15 bucks to get me and the two kidlings in.

09-21-2001, 05:24 PM	#1
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings I found this while going through TORN Green books. You can get the orignal here There has been talk that Star Wars was based loosely (or inspired by) the great Tolkien trilogy, Lord of the Rings. As a fan of both, I’m going to list some of the instances where Star Wars might have been influenced by Lord of the Rings. I’m just going to concentrate on the original three movies (ANH, TESB, ROTJ). Both are trilogies (of course), both are classic stories of good versus evil. The evil in the Lord of the Rings (the ring) is destroyed when it is thrown down a long chasm in the heart of the evil empire (Mount Doom in the Land of Mordor). The evil in Star Wars (the emperor) is destroyed when he is tossed down a large hole in his home base (the Death Star). Now, the characters. Luke Skywalker is loosely based on Frodo. Both are the central figures, both possess more power than either of them ever really thought. And both are under enormous pressure to “go to the Dark Side”. The power of the ring could give Frodo unlimited power, but, through tremendous will, he resists its evil offerings. Likewise with Luke, where the power of the Dark Side must be resisted or the resistance will fall. Princess Leia is based, loosely, on Frodo’s sidekick Sam Gamgee. Of course, Leia starts off as a powerful Princess, while Sam is a simple gardener, but there paths become similar. Both discover they have access to the same power that Frodo and Luke have, yet both are loyal and pure of heart, and are easily able to resist it. This is a very loose basing. Han Solo is based on the character of Strider or Aragorn. Both are loners, wanderers, who come off as scoundrels. As Luke first met Han at a cantina, Frodo first met Aragorn at the inn of the Prancing Pony (a bar). Like Luke, Frodo unwillingly took the mysterious stranger along. And, of course, in both instances a great friendship developed. Also, both Han Solo and Aragorn were not what they appeared, as Solo became the general and one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and Aragorn, of course, was revealed to be the king, leader of the resistance against Sauron. Obi Wan Kenobi is based on Gandalf. This is the most obvious. As Obi-Wan was a spiritual advisor to Luke, Gandalf was one to Frodo. Both fell in the first episode of the trilogy while in enemy territory (Gandalf in Moria , Obi-Wan in the Death Star). Both returned in the second installment, Gandalf brought back to life, Obi-Wan returning as a ghost. Both were instrumental in keeping their protégés from going to the Dark Side. Both appeared as wise old men, in flowing robes, who were greater than they appeared to be. C3PO and R2D2 were loosely based on the hobbits Merry and Pippen. Both sets provided comic relief, both were an (almost) inseperable duo, both spent the first half of the trilogy getting in the way, and both proved instrumental in the end. There are others. Lando Calrissien (sp) could be based loosely on Faramir or Eomer. The Emperor is kind of a combination of Sauron and Saruman. Stormtroopers are like orcs, but the biggest, and most surprising, is this: Darth Vader is based on Gollum. Seriously. The six-foot-seven, Dark Lord of the Sith, ever powerful is based on the little, slimy, wiggling worm Gollum. Both started out good, both with different names (Smeagol and Anakin). Both succumbed to the dark power that their counterparts (Luke and Frodo) were able to resist. Both were spared by their counterparts (Frodo spared Gollum on numerous occasions, Luke refused to kill Vader and tossed away his lightsaber at the end of ROTJ). And while Luke and Frodo were the heroes of the story, it was Vader and Gollum, respectively, that redeemed themselves by destroying the evil in the end. Vader, of course, tossed the Emperor into the shaft, costing him his life, while it was Gollum who lost his life by seizing the ring and falling into the Cracks of Doom. Also, don’t forget that while Vader was Luke’s father, Gollum was of a race that was ancestors of Frodo’s race.

09-23-2001, 02:21 AM	#2
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	While SW was definitely influenced by LOTR (George Lucas was an LOTR fan, and once planned to film the books himself), I think this comparison goes too far - or maybe not far enough. It's been similarly said about comparisons between LOTR and the Second World War that: If you're going to make allegorical equal-sign comparisons, they had better work universally. I believe there's a quote from Tom Shippey on this but I can't find it at this precise moment. I think SW is based on LOTR in this way: Dark Side of the Force = The One Ring ... and all related themes. That's all. Every other comparison can be derived from that, and virtually all of them are from a thematic perspective. There are many, and I'll point them out some other time. Now to take apart the flaws in guy's arguments one by one: First of all, to take only the completed SW Classic Trilogy is a limited perspective that does not encompass all the developing themes in the saga. Secondly, LOTR is not a trilogy. It is one novel often published in three volumes. If you wanted to divide it up, it's actually evidently in six parts, not three. Star Wars: we do not know at this time whether it is going to end up being a single congruent six-episode saga, or a two-part saga where each part has three episodes. Also, the idea of a "classic story of good versus evil" is certainly debatable: although I will not demonstrate the specifics here, it is arguable that short of the Dark Side and its counterpart the One Ring, absolute evil isn't even represented. The Luke-Frodo comparison isn't really a comparison between Luke and Frodo, but rather just the situations they are both placed in. Again, this is a comparison of the Dark Side and the One Ring, NOT the involved characters. It is similarly arguable that neither Frodo nor Luke are clearly central characters; doing so is an interpretation of either story under a limited scope. Also, the most major difference here is that at the critical moment, Luke defied the Dark Side, while Frodo embraced the power of the Ring. The Leia-Sam comparison: It is not demonstrated what the similarities in their paths are. This is a trivial comparison at best, and is looser than just loose. The Han-Aragorn and Ben-Gandalf comparisons are justified a little better, and could definitely be supported with a little more digging, but no clear evidence suggests that one was based on another; it is entirely possible, and perhaps likely, that they simply have similar origins in the classic concept of a mythology itself. The rest of the comparisons are also a little weak: it is perhaps possible to strengthen them with more detail in the justification, but that would involve the elimination of the distinct and highly likely possibility that Tolkien and Lucas merely based minor characters on less The Vader-Gollum comparison simply does not hold up. All the similarities are, once again, similarities between the Dark Side and the One Ring. While Vader redeemed himself, Gollum perished because of the power of the Ring. Did Gollum intentionally escape his corruption and destroy the Ring? Highly doubtful; Gollum wouldn't intentionally destroy his Precious in a thousand Ages, and he had no motive to support such an action anyway. There are many similarities between LOTR and SW, but once again, they are thematic. The conclusions here simply pick out the wrong comparisons in an often trivial manner. Overall, they are just too far-reaching and insufficiently justified. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

09-27-2001, 10:42 PM	#3
ryan t2t relic Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 531	this is starting to look like that SW-LoTR comparison ben had on his old site, before he remodeled for this 'tolkien trail' thing __________________ "And the Lord spoke, "Send me your money, Empty thine wallets into my pockets my pockets, the pockets of Ryan, Ryan, he who will deliver the money unto me. Then you will truley be happy." And the people followed, and all was well." --Ryan 62:33

09-30-2001, 10:58 AM	#4
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	Hmmmm, Vader and Gollum.... I never thought of it before. In a way, it does make sense. __________________ Boo!

10-18-2001, 11:16 AM	#5
XRogue Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2000 Location: D/FW Texas, USA Posts: 345	Actually, during this last summer, I visited a Star Wars exhibit at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, and the info they had at the exhibit quoted GL as saying he had borrowed heavily from LOTR. No specifics, just that one statement, and then the separate parts of the exhibit talking about the hero's quest from classical literature. The Hero, the Mentor, the Labyrinth and that stuff. On a side note, this exhibit was spectacular. It was on loan from the Smithsonian and they had some cool stuff. The original Yoda puppet from ESB, the Vader suit, the Star Destroyer and the SSD Executor, Vader's ship that were used in shooting and the Artoo and C3PO costumes to name a few. It was fascinating and well worth the 15 bucks to get me and the two kidlings in.