Should movie fans read the books?

jerseydevil · 12-05-2003, 01:59 AM

it is obvious that BB hasn't read the books - yet is able to tell book fans that we don't know what we are talking about with the movies. Now book fans have read the books AND seen the movies. Do you think that for a person to really discuss the quality of the movies and what jackson did that they should have also read the books?

Is it enough to really judge these films without having read the books? I say no. There was way too much changed in my opinion to say whether jackson brought the books faithfully to the screen or if they could have been better. BB and others constantly say that jackson couldn't have done them any better than they were. I disagree. Flight to the Ford is the absolute worst change in the movies. It affected the key development of the main character. Treebread not knowing that Saruman was destroying his forest is another big change. The biggest unforgivable change though is Aragorn running from his heritage and being a wimp.

How can someone judge the quality of Jackson's interpretation of books without having read them.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-05-2003, 02:18 AM

Reminder- After several incidents and some complaints, I would like to remind you all to keep the disussion civil and on topic.

hectorberlioz · 12-05-2003, 02:26 AM

Quote:

How can someone judge the quality of Jackson's interpretation of books without having read them.

talk about hitting the nail on the head. that drove nail clean all the way in!

btw- thank you SGH for reminding us to be civil.

cassiopeia · 12-05-2003, 04:34 AM

You need to read the books to make a judgement of whether PJ made a good adaptation of the LOTR. But if you are merely judging the quality of the films, you needn't have read the book. Jackson could have done better on many occasions -- flight to the Ford, Faramir, Saruman -- all that we've discussed in other threads. ROTK SPOILER:

And the change in the ROTK: Frodo sending Sam away is unforgivable IMO. In the book that scene (Cirith Ungol) is perfect: why tamper with a masterpeice? Does PJ truely think his scene is better?

That said, anybody who likes the movies but doesn't read the book is not very smart, to say it the nicest way I can.

Dúnedain · 12-05-2003, 05:09 AM

Well I know there are a bunch of us here that read and loved the books and also liked the movies...I am one of them

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-05-2003, 06:18 AM

Should movie fans read the books?

EVERYONE should read the books.

Katie of the Golden Wood · 12-05-2003, 08:14 AM

Even though it appears taboo on this board, its possible to appreciate both the books and the movies. There are differences. There have to be. A movie is a different entity than a book and they CANNOT be made successfully in the same way. Give PJ some credit people. Do you realize how much worse it could have been? At least give him credit for perfectly catching the mood of the books and keeping the majority of things the same.

Katie

Melko Belcha · 12-05-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
Give PJ some credit people. Do you realize how much worse it could have been?

Do you realise how much better they could have been?

In discussing if the films are a good adaptation of the books, I don't think people just need to read the books, they need to know all the details of the books. I can not tell you how many people I know or have talked to that have read LotR numerous times, but have never even glanced at the Appendix, never even knew the story of Aragorn and Arwen was in there.

squinteyedsoutherner · 12-05-2003, 11:16 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
Give PJ some credit people. Do you realize how much worse it could have been?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That argument has been made here many times, and while it is most certainly true it doesn’t really add to, or take away from the inherent merit of a film. There is a similar argument made here that goes “look how bad other Hollywood adaptations have been, compared to those, this film is actually quite faithful to the original”

Every movie I have ever seen that I disliked could have been even worse in some way. And just because Hollywood routinely makes poor adaptations doesn’t mean that something that is one or two steps above that “norm” is still not very much in the basement. Good scenery, nice costumes, (for the most part) good acting, but a dreadful screenplay in terms of capturing Tolkien, in my opinion.

Katie of the Golden Wood · 12-05-2003, 01:38 PM

I don't think you're being very fair. The aim of a movie adaptation isn't to bring to life every detail in a book. It is to adapt the book into the best cinematic experience possible. The important thing is that they get the spirit of the books right, and, in my opinion they do. Movies can't be as good as books, and the answer isn't to keep everything exactly the same and take the screenplay directly from Tolkien. Tolkien was writing a story, not a screenplay. Very different stuff.

But he captured the themes and the spirit, the most important part of Tolkiens work.

Katie

jerseydevil · 12-05-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
Even though it appears taboo on this board, its possible to appreciate both the books and the movies. There are differences. There have to be. A movie is a different entity than a book and they CANNOT be made successfully in the same way. Give PJ some credit people. Do you realize how much worse it could have been? At least give him credit for perfectly catching the mood of the books and keeping the majority of things the same.

Again - this isn't part of the thread subject. Not everyone agrees he captured the mood of the books. The movie fans shold get OVER it. Why must the book fans accept the crap jjob they feel he did?

Stay on topic.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-05-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

But he captured the themes and the spirit, the most important part of Tolkiens work.

And he also took many important parts of Tolkien's work and mutilated them. Credit where credit is due.

Should movie fans read the books?

Absolutely. You cannot have an intelligent discussion nor a fair one without knowing both sides of the argument.

***Valandil*** · 12-05-2003, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
I don't think you're being very fair. The aim of a movie adaptation isn't to bring to life every detail in a book. It is to adapt the book into the best cinematic experience possible. The important thing is that they get the spirit of the books right, and, in my opinion they do. Movies can't be as good as books, and the answer isn't to keep everything exactly the same and take the screenplay directly from Tolkien. Tolkien was writing a story, not a screenplay. Very different stuff.

But he captured the themes and the spirits, the most important part of Tolkiens work.

I STRONGLY agree, Katie! I have tried to say so, but some around here DO make the pretense that one has no "real" appreciation of JRRT and his works if one also likes the movies - which is a bunch of baloney! (Oh - and there aren't that many of them... the same ones just say it A LOT!)

Interesting... recently read a review of "Master and Commander" - the reviewer had once interviewed the author and was quite convinced that he would have HATED the movie. Mostly because the secondary character (ship's doctor - I'm not really familiar with those books myself) was downplayed.

One statement I read here time and again is that "Jackson is a hack who made a dumbed-down Hollywood version of... blah, blah, blah"

The thing is, ANY movie adaptation HAS to be 'dumbed-down' - if the book has any substance to it. This is NOT because the movie audience is dumber... it just has to do with the element of time and how our minds process information. If it takes me 12-15 hours to read a book, how can a 2 or even 3 hour movie POSSIBLY tell me everything the book does? Some stuff (including characters, peripheral action, etc) MUST be cut, or there's no way I can follow it on the screen. Unless I'm one of the minority who has read the book (but even then, we're talking about a 6+ hour movie). Face it, there just weren't enough of us who have read the books for it to be financially feasible for a studio to risk making a movie whose purpose is to make us happy!

In other cases, scenes which are retained may need to be changed so that they 'work' better for a movie - as opposed to how they work for a book. The people in charge (producer, director, screenwriter) have to have a little leeway to decide what those changes are. Heck, they didn't even take "Ten Commandments" right out of the Bible, exactly as written!!!

For you who disagree with me, imagine writing a screenplay which first has to clear concerns of the studio which is looking to finance the venture. THEN, you face the realities of actually filming everything. And how do you convey all the tidbits of information that Tolkien supplies by narrative. And THEN you have to cut out enough to keep the film length palatable... tough job!

I just LOVE the books, and I'm thoroughly enjoying every bit of the movies!

For those of you who cannot, I can only wish that you could.

***Valandil*** · 12-05-2003, 02:14 PM

Oh... and SHOULD movie fans read the books? Well... that'd be great! WILL they?? Some will... some won't. We can't really control them all, now can we?

Katie of the Golden Wood · 12-05-2003, 02:21 PM

One of my best friends saw the movies and loved them, and now she's read the series twice and is a big fan of both.

I think people should definitely read them. Books are always better than movies, and if you like the movies, there is a decent chance you'll like the books.

Katie

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-05-2003, 03:00 PM

Quote:

At least give him credit for perfectly catching the mood of the books

I would, but he flunked horribly on that respect. He did very well with the visuals, and the details of locations, costumes, etc.

Strain out the gnat...

jerseydevil · 12-05-2003, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
One statement I read here time and again is that "Jackson is a hack who made a dumbed-down Hollywood version of... blah, blah, blah"

Sorry if you disagree with this - but he did. Arwen at the ford, theoden, council of elrond, etc. I don't really care how many times you hear it acvtually - it is my opinion. I have to constantly hear BB carry on and other movie fans.

Now can you PLEASE stay on the damn topic - if you want to glorify Jackson - do it in one of the 12 -20 threads BB started where he praises jackson.

This is about whether movie fans can really appreciate and understand Middle Earth without having read the books.

***Valandil*** · 12-05-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil

This is about whether movie fans can really appreciate the and understand Middle Earth without having read the books.

Well, I definitely think they can get a nice start. Their understanding would be enhanced by viewing the additional touches in the extended editions... and naturally, further / fully enhanced by reading the books.

Not all of them will make time for this though. Some will keep LOTR as a casual interest and pursue other interests more vigorously... in their 24 hours of each day.

jerseydevil · 12-05-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Well, I definitely think they can get a nice start. Their understanding would be enhanced by viewing the additional touches in the extended editions... and naturally, further / fully enhanced by reading the books.

Not all of them will make time for this though. Some will keep LOTR as a casual interest and pursue other interests more vigorously... in their 24 hours of each day.

That is fine and true - but when book fans have a problem with the movie - is it right for them to constantly say that the movies were great adaptations and Jackson nor anyone else could have done better? They haven't even read the books - so what basis are they stating this.

I have read the books numerous times and was GREATLY looking forward the films. Sadly the movies are sorely lacking in the mood and emotion (except jackson's overblown emotion). The heart and soul of Middle Earth is missing from the movies. It's a hack and slash fest -without the feelings of the books.

I at least gave the movies a chance and are very familiar with BOTH.

olsonm · 12-05-2003, 05:39 PM

No one has to read the book to have an opinion about the movies. But if you wish to compare the films to the book it stands to reason that you must read it. Rather obvious.

12-05-2003, 01:59 AM	#1
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Should movie fans read the books? it is obvious that BB hasn't read the books - yet is able to tell book fans that we don't know what we are talking about with the movies. Now book fans have read the books AND seen the movies. Do you think that for a person to really discuss the quality of the movies and what jackson did that they should have also read the books? Is it enough to really judge these films without having read the books? I say no. There was way too much changed in my opinion to say whether jackson brought the books faithfully to the screen or if they could have been better. BB and others constantly say that jackson couldn't have done them any better than they were. I disagree. Flight to the Ford is the absolute worst change in the movies. It affected the key development of the main character. Treebread not knowing that Saruman was destroying his forest is another big change. The biggest unforgivable change though is Aragorn running from his heritage and being a wimp. How can someone judge the quality of Jackson's interpretation of books without having read them. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-05-2003 at 02:01 AM.

12-05-2003, 02:18 AM	#2
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Reminder- After several incidents and some complaints, I would like to remind you all to keep the disussion civil and on topic. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-05-2003, 05:09 AM	#5
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Well I know there are a bunch of us here that read and loved the books and also liked the movies...I am one of them __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

12-05-2003, 06:18 AM	#6
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Should movie fans read the books? EVERYONE should read the books. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-05-2003, 01:38 PM	#10
Katie of the Golden Wood Enting Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: US of A Posts: 69	I don't think you're being very fair. The aim of a movie adaptation isn't to bring to life every detail in a book. It is to adapt the book into the best cinematic experience possible. The important thing is that they get the spirit of the books right, and, in my opinion they do. Movies can't be as good as books, and the answer isn't to keep everything exactly the same and take the screenplay directly from Tolkien. Tolkien was writing a story, not a screenplay. Very different stuff. But he captured the themes and the spirit, the most important part of Tolkiens work. Katie Last edited by Katie of the Golden Wood : 12-05-2003 at 01:40 PM.

12-05-2003, 08:14 AM	#7
Katie of the Golden Wood Enting Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: US of A Posts: 69	Even though it appears taboo on this board, its possible to appreciate both the books and the movies. There are differences. There have to be. A movie is a different entity than a book and they CANNOT be made successfully in the same way. Give PJ some credit people. Do you realize how much worse it could have been? At least give him credit for perfectly catching the mood of the books and keeping the majority of things the same. Katie

12-05-2003, 11:16 AM	#9
squinteyedsoutherner Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 198	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood Give PJ some credit people. Do you realize how much worse it could have been? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That argument has been made here many times, and while it is most certainly true it doesn’t really add to, or take away from the inherent merit of a film. There is a similar argument made here that goes “look how bad other Hollywood adaptations have been, compared to those, this film is actually quite faithful to the original” Every movie I have ever seen that I disliked could have been even worse in some way. And just because Hollywood routinely makes poor adaptations doesn’t mean that something that is one or two steps above that “norm” is still not very much in the basement. Good scenery, nice costumes, (for the most part) good acting, but a dreadful screenplay in terms of capturing Tolkien, in my opinion.

12-05-2003, 02:14 PM	#14
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Oh... and SHOULD movie fans read the books? Well... that'd be great! WILL they?? Some will... some won't. We can't really control them all, now can we?

12-05-2003, 02:21 PM	#15
Katie of the Golden Wood Enting Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: US of A Posts: 69	One of my best friends saw the movies and loved them, and now she's read the series twice and is a big fan of both. I think people should definitely read them. Books are always better than movies, and if you like the movies, there is a decent chance you'll like the books. Katie

12-05-2003, 05:39 PM	#20
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	No one has to read the book to have an opinion about the movies. But if you wish to compare the films to the book it stands to reason that you must read it. Rather obvious. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

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