anti american sentiments

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Draken

The New World empires were different - they were about acquisition and settlement. True enough, Britain, France and Spain started this trend in North America, but it accelerated AFTER the formation of the USA as a separate nation.

Yes, the Europeans left a mess in Africa and the Middle East when they dismantled their empires. The New World empires were never dismantled though - sure they called themselves republics and broke ties with Europe, but I'm not sure how much solace that was to the indigenous populations. Certainly the USA is a multicultural society - of peoples originating in the Old World. Not very many indigenous Americans though, are there?

So while European involvement DID cause many of the problems in the developing world...at least when they left the indigenous peoples were still there to HAVE problems!

Acquisiton of land occurred again - long before the US was a country. True - one of the reasons why the US signed the Declaration of Independence was becuase England was preventing American's from expanding westward. But America always intended to expand to the Pacific Ocean. Many of the original colonies actually had their western border stated as extending to the Pacific Ocean even though they had no idea where that was (New York, Pennsylvania, the Carolinas) That's why on many of the colonial maps - their western borders do not exist. After we expanded westward - we stopped. Alaska was bought from Russia. But we didn't use any of our land aquisitions as a prison island like Australia was used as. Have you looked at the devastation that England caused to the native population there and Australia is still part of the UK? Another country that makes up part of the UK is Canada and they expanded westward - just like the US. If you're saying that the United States took over more land in it's history than England did or any of the other colonial powers - then that is an ignorant statement.

You are wrong in the number of Indians that live here - and since I have a friend who is 100% Mohawk anf I go up to Six Nation Indian Reserve a lot and she comes down here - I think I know a bit more about the Indian people than you do and what the majority of their true feelings are.

Most Indians were killled by colonialists through the spread of foreign deseases, such as smallpox that they had no defense against. Yes the trail of tears, etc was wrong during the 1800's. I never denied that we hadn't made mistakes in our past. But I don't know why you think that the Indians were wiped out.

New Jersey had actually bought ALL of it's land from the Indians - it was one of the requirements in our charter - that all land must be purchased fairly from the Indians. The Lenapes moved westward and now I think most of them live in Montana or Arizona. But contrary to your feelings there are a lot of Indians still around and my best friend is Indian and lives on Six Nation Indian Reserve in Canada. Her grandfather was also the first elected chief of Six Nations too. Her mother lives in Buffalo. I also have friends that are part Indian too.

Indians are spread all over this country. The Chinook Indians in Oregon and Washington, The Cree, the Mohawks all still exist here throughout the US. Some live on the Indian Reserves - a lot live within the the "general" population of America. Many have married into other ethnicities - just like much of America has. Just because their blood line may be watered down - they're still part Indian.

Also - of course their percentage is small - currently there are 31 million Americans living here that weren't even born in the United States. They immigrated here from around the world - just like most of the American population. And only a small percentage comes from Europe now.

[Cirdan]

The models of the European Union and the integration of all cultures into America society provide excellent examples of what the future could look like. Instead of following the old world model of successive empires based on money and power, it is possible to accept that we have reached the limits of the value of nationalism. I mean this in the political sense and not cultural. While it was always easy for nations to build power through colonization and conquest, this is now, clearly not the case. There are no more uncharted lands to inhabit. Even the most primative third world countries are well armed, at least well enough to conduct guerilla warfare.

Maybe it is time to realize that the world is no longer an endless expanse, but rather a precious resource that is endangered. If the Euros can put aside their differences to form an economic union, then why shouldn't that be a global goal? One of the critical obstacles is whether or not the US is willing to join or would rather revel in superpowerdom until the party is over.

The US failed to take advantage of the excess wealth of the nineties to do much that was practical, like fixing the schools, finding alternative fuels, paying off the debt. Instead we manipulated the tax code to encourage over investment wich ended up in trillions of dollars lost.

We could walk away from the UN since we only needed it during the Cold War. We could ignore world opinion, invade whatever country we consider a threat, and I doubt anyone could stop it. But can we ignore history? What isolationism and colonialism/imperialism inevitably lead to?

The complaints of the ubiquitousness of American pop culture are harely noteworthy. I eat Thai food and don't feel they are impinging on my culture, but expanding it. I can watch some big production film from New Zealand and enjoy it thoroughly (except the edits to the original plot).

The point is that the advanced countries of the world have an understanding of what is at stake and should join economic and cultural forces to bring peace and prosperity to the world before it is too far gone to save.

The petty bickering, the xenophobia, and the resentments must be laid aside so that instead of devoting all our resources to war, we can do something to pass on to futurre generations that says that life is worthwhile and that the future isn't hopeless. It may seem optimistic and utopian, but in the end it is the most selfish thing we could do. And that is the true nature of the beast, as it has been pointed out before, to think of what is best for one's own first.

[Spock]

Personally I favor isolationism. The US should just pull out of all countries that express intense dislike. Then let those countries fight their own insurrections and civil strifes.

Trade etc. can go on but monetary and military aide should stop completely.

Then let us see how the wailing continues.

[Draken]

jd:

I'm not talking about wiped out - but the fact remains that the civilisation that occupied ALL of North America 400 or so years ago has been supplanted from Atlantic to Pacific by an English/Spanish/plus a bit of French-speaking one with laws and government based on a European model that can be traced back to the ancient Greeks. How many native Americans remain to live in that society isn't the issue - what I'm trying to point out is that the society they live in is one imposed on their forebears, just as European colonies were imposed on the populations of Africa, Asia etc. And that process did not stop when the USA was formed and ceased to be a colony - it accelerated.

It strikes me as a little ironic that you can see (correctly) that European colonisation policies of 100-200 years ago have left a lot of problems to this day, but can't see that your own country was founded on just the same acquisitive drive to take someone else's territory, after 1777 as well as before.

And no, Australia isn't part of the UK.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Draken
I'm not talking about wiped out - but the fact remains that the civilisation that occupied ALL of North America 400 or so years ago has been supplanted from Atlantic to Pacific by an English/Spanish/plus a bit of French-speaking one with laws and government based on a European model that can be traced back to the ancient Greeks. How many native Americans remain to live in that society isn't the issue - what I'm trying to point out is that the society they live in is one imposed on their forebears, just as European colonies were imposed on the populations of Africa, Asia etc. And that process did not stop when the USA was formed and ceased to be a colony - it accelerated.

It strikes me as a little ironic that you can see (correctly) that European colonisation policies of 100-200 years ago have left a lot of problems to this day, but can't see that your own country was founded on just the same acquisitive drive to take someone else's territory, after 1777 as well as before.

And no, Australia isn't part of the UK.

I don't know why you said that it was ironic that I can't see what our country did concerning land aquisition when I said it right here....

True - one of the reasons why the US signed the Declaration of Independence was becuase England was preventing American's from expanding westward. But America always intended to expand to the Pacific Ocean. Many of the original colonies actually had their western border stated as extending to the Pacific Ocean even though they had no idea where that was (New York, Pennsylvania, the Carolinas) That's why on many of the colonial maps - their western borders do not exist.
......
Yes the trail of tears, etc was wrong during the 1800's. I never denied that we hadn't made mistakes in our past. But I don't know why you think that the Indians were wiped out.

This is from the Declaration of Independence...

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

Declaration of Independence

Yeah - I know that the United States had always planned on claiming the land from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. It was termed Manifest Destiny. I had passed on your message to my friend that lives on Six Nation Indian Reserve - she had no idea what you were talking about when you implied that there were no Indians left to" HAVE problems". There isn't the "we hate white men" mentality that you seem to think Indians have here.

I'm not saying it was wrong or right - what the US did to the Indians. A lot of it was wrong of course, as I said. History is full of more powerful people taking land from others. England supported the south during the Civil war hoping that the US would disintegrate and then they could pick up the pieces and reclaim it - completely ignoring the issue of slavery. Your own country is completely founded on the stealing of land and imposing a political system that was alien to England. Basically the Monarcy and England is founded on stolen land. The Norman conquerors imposed a political system that was foreign to the Anglo-Saxons. Rome imposed politcal systems throughout Europe and Africa. England imposed political systems in Hong Kong, Africa, India, the Americas, the Carribean, etc.

Australians are still subjects of the British Crown - similar to the way Canadians are. I'm going to have to ask my 'cousin" that lives in Australia about this. According to the Australian website -

Act to extend to the Queen's successors.
2. The provisions of this Act referring to the Queen shall extend to Her Majesty's heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.

Legislative power.
1. The legislative power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a Federal Parliament, which shall consist of the Queen, a Senate, and a House of Representatives, and which is herein-after called "The Parliament," or "The Parliament of the Commonwealth."

Governor-General.
2. A Governor-General appointed by the Queen shall be Her Majesty's representative in the Commonwealth, and shall have and may exercise in the Commonwealth during the Queen's pleasure, but subject to this Constitution, such powers and functions of the Queen as Her Majesty may be pleased to assign to him.

Salary of Governor-General.
3. There shall be payable to the Queen out of the Consolidated Revenue fund of the Commonwealth, for the salary of the Governor-General, an annual sum which, until the Parliament otherwise provides, shall be ten thousand pounds.

Disallowance by the Queen.
59. The Queen may disallow any law within one year from the Governor-General's assent, and such disallowance on being made known by the Governor-General by speech or message to each of the Houses of the Parliament, or by Proclamation, shall annul the law from the day when the disallowance is so made known.

Signification of Queen's pleasure on Bills reserved.
60. A proposed law reserved for the Queen's pleasure shall not have any force unless and until within two years from the day on which it was presented to the Governor-General for the Queen's assent the Governor-General makes known, by speech or message to each of the Houses of the Parliament, or by Proclamation, that it has received the Queen's assent.

The Australian Constitution

On the Statistics and Fact Page page it says that Australia is 32 times greater than the United Kingdom (in land size). The UK is classified differently than what I had always read - which is - any country that falls under the Bristish Monarchy - makes up the United Kingdom (such as Canada, Austrialia, New Zealand, - India, Hong Kong - in the past, etc.). Great Britain is made up of Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England and Britain is made up of Enlgland, Wales and Scotland. Acording to this site - what seems to be currently known as the United Kingdom, I had always thought was known as Great Britain. But no matter which what you call it - Australia still falls under the Brisish Monarchy - which is what I was getting at. This is what the The Queen and the Commonwealth says....

The Queen is not only Queen of the United Kingdom, but Head of the Commonwealth, a voluntary association of 54 independent countries.

Most of these countries have progressed from British rule to independent self-government, and the Commonwealth now serves to foster international co-operation and trade links between people all over the world.

The Queen is also Queen of a number of Commonwealth realms, including Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

I went to Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty yesterday and they had things about the Indians. One thing they said was that because of war, desease, destruction of reservations - etc. That less than 250,000 Indians were left in the US by 1900. Now they say that there are more Indians than at the time of the Revolution. They also had a lot about Slavery too. Only 5.8% of slaves were transported to North America from Africa. Most went to Brazil - 23-28%.

Believe me - I know that the US has done a lot of things wrong. But it seems like the world only wants us to pay for our mistakes and ignore their own. American bashing has become a great pastime in the world it seems - it let's countries ignore their own history, their own short comings and concentrate on someone elses. Believe me - Americans don't go around and talk about the evils that other countries did in their history (except for the Japanese and Germans during WWII). The only reason I point out other countries on this forum is because everyone is just too happy to point out every misstep that America has made. As I said repeatedly - the US isn't perfect - but neither is any single person perfect either.

Sorry this is so jumbled - but there is a lot of informatuion out there. And I don't think many people fully understand each others countries. As I said - it's very easy to pass judgement on another country - each country's media filters out news differently and that causes less than a full picture of the people or the steps that have gone into a country's government taking a particular action. You can disagree with what we do around the world - and that's fine - but the US and any country is going to look after it's self interests first. Sorry if people don't like that fact - but that is the way governments, people and animals work.

And I mostly agree with Spock - I feel that we shouldn't be all over the world. Personally I do think we should get out of the Middle East - let Europe worry about some things for a while. We should pull our troops out of Bosnia, we should pull our troops out of Europe. The Founding Fathers invisioned the American armed forces as only a defensive weapon - they were never to be deployed over seas. That changed with WW I and WW II - and now it seems too late to reverse this.

[sun-star]

Your own country is completely founded on the stealing of land and imposing a political system that was alien to England. Basically the Monarcy and England is founded on stolen land. The Norman conquerors imposed a political system that was foreign to the Anglo-Saxons. Rome imposed politcal systems throughout Europe and Africa. England imposed political systems in Hong Kong, Africa, India, the Americas, the Carribean, etc.

Believe me - I know that the US has done a lot of things wrong. But it seems like the world only wants us to pay for our mistakes and ignore their own. American bashing has become a great pastime in the world it seems - it let's countries ignore their own history, their own short comings and concentrate on someone elses.

In criticising America, countries are not necessarily ignoring their own mistakes. For former colonial powers like Britain to criticise America for empire-building is very hypocritical, but that's not generally what America is criticised for, because quite clearly it isn't trying to build an empire or invade other countries in the old way. The world has changed since Britain built its Empire. The problems facing America now are not about the rights and wrongs of colonisation, so the records of other countries in that area are not really the point. Should Italy be debarred from commenting on the international situation today because the Romans took over Europe thousands of years ago? (I realise you were replying to specific criticisms about American treatment of the Indians, but this applies in general as well).

As you say, all countries have made mistakes in the past, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that this is ignored in favour if America bashing, in Britain at least. I can't speak for other countries. There is a lot of 'colonial guilt' in Britain, just as Germany still has problems dealing with what their country did in World War 2. It is more fashionable to talk about the faults and mistakes of Britain in the past than what it actually did right (yes, there were some things! ). This is of course redressing the balance after many years where the wrong that Britain did in the past was almost ignored. In fact, one of the things some British people envy about America is that Americans aren't afraid to stand up for their country and 'wrap themselves in the flag', while if someone tries to defend Britain, they are seen as racist, old-fashioned and ignorant. Britain and other European countries have had a lot longer to make mistakes in than America has! And we are aware of that. Criticism of America is not (normally) designed to replace criticism of ourselves, but has a different base entirely, more to do with getting used to having one big superpower which is much more powerful than us and which we don't have any influence over if we feel they are wrong. Basically, America doesn't have to listen to us, it doesn't seem inclined to, and some British people have a problem with that. I don't feel qualified to go into that here. I couldn't possibly do all the complexity justice. I've probably been very incoherent, but I'm trying not to be offensive!

[Spock]

Last post.
Why do people in charge and otherwise refuse to dwell in the present moment? Get over it. It's called History because it is what was. Move forward, try not to repeat the ills perpetrated and hope for the best.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
In fact, one of the things some British people envy about America is that Americans aren't afraid to stand up for their country and 'wrap themselves in the flag', while if someone tries to defend Britain, they are seen as racist, old-fashioned and ignorant. Britain and other European countries have had a lot longer to make mistakes in than America has! And we are aware of that. Criticism of America is not (normally) designed to replace criticism of ourselves, but has a different base entirely, more to do with getting used to having one big superpower which is much more powerful than us and which we don't have any influence over if we feel they are wrong. Basically, America doesn't have to listen to us, it doesn't seem inclined to, and some British people have a problem with that. I don't feel qualified to go into that here. I couldn't possibly do all the complexity justice. I've probably been very incoherent, but I'm trying not to be offensive!

You shouldn't feel ashamed to be patriotic and proud of your country or your histrory. People can not judge the past in the morals of today. I just realized that I had never really heard "patriotic" referred to people in any other country - wasn't sure if it was restricted to Americans or something. But the dictionary says it's not. We're not going to apologise to anyone for the way we feel about our country. I've always been patriotic though. I've grown up around the Revolutionary War sites.

My friend in Canada sent me a virtual 4th of July card and she wrote -

Happy 4th of July! Enjoy the day and for what it stands. FREEDOM in what we choose, FREEDOM in who we are, FREEDOM for a better (best) life.

Our patriotism is a result of our history. The struggles we have endured. From the struggles of the first settlers, to the struggle for Independence to the struggle of the immigrants to make a better life. We have a right to be proud of the things our ancestors had to overcome to make this country what it is. I'm one of those immigrant familes that came through Ellis Island - worked in the "sweat shops", worked to make our dreams come true. I'm proud of the sacrifices that they made. I'm proud that America gave my ancestors this opportunity and give millions of immigrants this same opportunity today. I'm not going to be ashamed of being a flag waving and proud American. I, at the same time, don't always agree with everything we do or the way our leaders always act. Our national anthem itself (which I hope they don't replace) is a song of defiance. That no matter what hardships we go through - we will not be defeated. History of Star Spangled Banner -> Words to the Star Spangled Banner We only sing the first stanza - but that is the full song.

By the way - my new "American Pride", Statue of Liberty, Flag Waving avatar has nothing to do with this thread or any other really. I just have it because of 4th of July. I will go back to my devil icon shortly.

I also realize that it must be difficult for France and England especially - and all the rest of Europe to go from World Powers and be replaced almost over night by a country that is currently only 226 years old. But Europe can't really blame us for that. Personally I think for being the worlds single world power - without any country to really oppose us at the moment - I think we've handled this power pretty well. Maybe not perfect - but much better than the majority of countries would be handling it. It was only a little over 50 years ago when Germany invaded it's weaker neighbors and attempted to take over the world.

In the 80's and early 90's Americans really were upset that it looked like Japan was going to over take us as the economic world power - but that hasn't materialised and doesn't look like it will in the forseeable future. Now Europe is trying to do the same thing through the use of the Euro. I do think the Euro is in the best interest of Europe and I do think that England not adopting the Euro was in England's best interest - since the pound was so much stronger than most, if not all, of the other European currencies that were replaced by the Euro.

Also - we do listen to our allies - we just don't always agree though. It's the same way that people interact with their friends. Sometimes people listen to their friends - sometimes they do things even when their friends are against it. We're not always going to agree, our allies leaders aren't always going to be able to have a good argument that will make us see why we should do what they think is right. For instance - we felt that the expansion of NATO was/is important - bringing in some of the for eastern bloc countries. Russia had a definite problem with it. A lot of people in Europe seemed to be against it just because Russia was voicing opposition to it. We pushed for it anyway - and we still discussed things with them. We're not setting NATO up as an invasionary force. Now Russia is an honary member - maybe one day they will be a full member. Who could have thought 15 - 20 years go that Russia would even be an honorary member of NATO?

Anyway - that's enough rambling for now. And by the way - I didn't think you were offensive. I try not to be either - it's just that it's hard to see so many threads start out under one subject and then become a let's bash America thread.

[Khamûl]

I would just like to post this editorial written by Gordon Sinclair in 1973.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

I found this and thought that it was a stirring pro-American view. Let the fireworks begin.

[jerseydevil]

I had seen that before. I think a friend of mine from Winnipeg had sent it to me after 9/11.

It is true - I don't see any one sending aid to flood ravaged people in Texas at the moment or help put out the 100,000+ acre fires that were/are burning and destroying homes in the west. The world did reach out during 9/11 - but it doesn't take half of that disaster for Americans to come to others aid.

[BeardofPants]

Isn't that pushing the stick in the other direction? Is it a world bashing thread now? I assure you that New Zealand does it's utmost to help those in need, with what little funds that we have. We take in more refugees per capita than any other country, and we regularly help out the UN with peacekeeping efforts: East Timor for example. And New Zealand was one of the first countries on hand to help out the US post September 11th, so don't give me that tripe about other countries not looking after their allies.

[jerseydevil]

I didn't bash anyone. I was simply stating a fact concerning how much aid we get from around the world when we suffer from a natural disaster - nor did I say that we didn't receive help during 9/11. As a matter of fact I said we did recieve help at that time.

I would like to know where the information is to back up your statement that you recieve more refuges per capita though than anyone in the world. I agree that it is possible - since New Zealand is a pretty small country.

Also - the US does FAR MORE than it's share around the world - yet it doesn't stop anyone from having numerous American-bashing threads or posts on this board.

[Cirdan]

New Zealand's migration rate is 4.7 /1000 while the US is 3.5/1000 per the CIA world factbook.

[BeardofPants]

Thanks Cirdan. Saved me having to look for the link.

I'm tired of xenophobia. This argument is fruitless, because in terms of flooding, etc, why should you expect the world to come "save" you? NZ just suffered a massive flood down south due to cyclone season. Our reservoir of water is completely up **** creek, and the entire region of Waikato just flooded causing millions of dollars in damage. Do I see anyone leaping to our aid? No. Do I see anyone helping out Australia everytime there's a forrest fire? No. Now why should we help out one of the richest countries in the world everytime there's a natural disaster?

Remember, at the end of the day, we're all very fortunate to be living in countries of comparative wealth. All this xenophobia is completely non-conducive at the end of the day. We don't live in poverty, or have a high rate of aids, and other related viruses. I'll end with this refrain:

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??

[jerseydevil]

You of all people, from our chats, should know that I'm not xenophobic - I love other countries and I love learning about them. Remember - you even admitted you really don't know much about the United States. It does seem rather funny that you didn't say "can't we all get along" until things started being pointed out about others. And I DID START a thread to allow people to discuss their countries and share things with others. I felt through that thread we could get a better understanding of each others countries without getting into politics - which you have posted on several times.

But I would like to know why people feel, since we're the "richest" country in the world, we're expected to not only help ourselves - but make sure we help everyone else in the world? I wasn't even expecting help during our natural disasters - but we do help Europe out when they have theirs a lot of times. Maybe we should count the number of anti-American posts on the board and compare to the number of anti-"other country" posts.

The only time I point out the short comings of other countries - is when those countries are constantly crirtisizing us. The only country I regularly joke around about is Canada and that's mostly because I have friends there.

By the way - do you realize that NJ has 5 million more people in it than New Zealand?

[BeardofPants]

You of all people, from our chats, should know that I'm not xenophobic...

I didn't point the gun at you. I was just thinking of all the "pass the buck" threads both here and xenite which everyone bitterly blames everyone else but themselves. It's tiresome. Quite frankly, I'm sick to death of both anti-US sentiments, and all the related angst involved. Today I took part in an anti-nuclear protest; it reminded me that there are more important principles to worry about, so no, I didn't just aclaim the "why can't we all get along" thing because you accused other countries of not caring.

But I would like to know why people feel, since we're the "richest" country in the world, we're expected to not only help ourselves - but make sure we help everyone else in the world? I wasn't even expecting help during our natural disasters - but we do help Europe out when they have theirs a lot of times. Maybe we should count the number of anti-American posts on the board and compare to the number of anti-"other country" posts.

Like I said above, I'm tired of the anti-US backlash. But I'm also tired of the US beating it's drum so regularly. No offence, but you have a jackass of a president - he's making no friends.

And if your country weids the "big stick" then it's only to be expected that people will get antsy about being policed. A thankless task indeed.

And you should know from our chats that I'm not anti-US.

By the way - do you realize that NJ has 5 million more people in it than New Zealand?

Would you quit editing while I'm replying?

Yes, I do. In terms of resources, the US far outweighs NZ. Definately. But my point is that even with our limited resources, we take in more migrants and refugees than the US. (whoops, better add "per capita"... )

[BeardofPants]

JD - I'm dropping it. I'm sure we could go at it all day, and argue about nothing. I'm not even sure what we're arguing about anymore. Peace, brother.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Like I said above, I'm tired of the anti-US backlash. But I'm also tired of the US beating it's drum so regularly. No offence, but you have a jackass of a president - he's making no friends.

I'm not going to stop beating the drum though. I like America - and as I said - I'm happy to be living here and proud of it.

Well that's your opinion of our president and also the opinion of some Americans - but not necessarily my opinion. But hey - I wanted John McCain. But I like Bush's cabinet.

Would you quit editing while I'm replying?

Yes, I do. In terms of resources, the US far outweighs NZ. Definately. But my point is that even with our limited resources, we take in more migrants and refugees than the US.

That's not really entirely true there. You have higher percentage of immigrants per capita than the US. New Jersey alone - if you break out the numbers by individual states - takes in 28,000 people each year (and I know we get more immigrants than the national average so that number is actually low). We only have 8,000+ square miles of land whereas New Zealand is 103,000+ square mile sof land.

Okay you reedited and added per capita.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
JD - I'm dropping it. I'm sure we could go at it all day, and argue about nothing. I'm not even sure what we're arguing about anymore. Peace, brother.

I don't feel like arguing anymore either - just as long as no one bashes the US. I much rather have our friendly joking chats and learn about each other's countries. I have a lot of friends that I don't agree with either religiously or politically - but they're still my friends.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I don't feel like arguing anymore either - just as long as no one bashes the US. I much rather have our friendly joking chats and learn about each other's countries. I have a lot of friends that I don't agree with either religiously or politically - but they're still my friends.

I understand. I'm sure if everyone was bashing NZ I'd get pretty pissed as well. No wait, we don't get pissed, we protest!