feanor a villian

afro-elf · 05-22-2002, 08:42 AM

I could have forgiven feanor for all things save for dying command he knew that his sons could not win and he doomed them all ( all people of ME) with his dying wish

to doom yourself is one thing but to drag your children and an entire population is unforgiveable

sort of like osama dooming all of afghanistan

it seems tolkien reoccurring sins are pride and greed

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-22-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
I could have forgiven feanor for all things save for dying command he knew that his sons could not win and he doomed them all ( all people of ME) with his dying wish

to doom yourself is one thing but to drag your children and an entire population is unforgiveable

sort of like osama dooming all of afghanistan

it seems tolkien reoccurring sins are pride and greed

When Feanor was dying, he knew that his efforts were in vain, and that Morgoth could not be defeated by the Noldor. He swore his sons to stand by their oath, because he was powerless to remove them from it. He and his sons swore the oath I think before Manwe and Varda and called Iluvatar as witness.

Tar-Elendil · 05-22-2002, 05:15 PM

i believe they swore the oath at tirion.

Strange-Looking Lurker · 05-22-2002, 05:49 PM

I think he's the bad guy even without his dying wish. It would have been better had he died at birth.

Tar-Elendil · 05-22-2002, 06:01 PM

i dont think he was a villain. i believe his pride sometimes got in the way of wisdom like what happened when he swore the oath. i believe he had such pride that people often mistakes him as a villain. aye, if they had not swore their oath many woes wouldnt have occured. But even less woes wouldnt have happened if the two trees werent created by yavanna. blame yavanna! not feanor!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-22-2002, 06:15 PM

I think we should give some of the blame to Feanor's mother.

***azalea*** · 05-22-2002, 07:30 PM

Why is that? (I have just been reading it, so I am looking for some good "analysis"

).

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-22-2002, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
Why is that? (I have just been reading it, so I am looking for some good "analysis" ).

After Feanor was born, his mother Miriel was so weakened because of the fire of Feanors spirit, that she chose to not continue, and went to Lorien and lay down to die, leaving Feanor without a mother, and Finwe in great grief. Because of her death and because at that time, the Noldor were still in the days of their youth, Finwe wished to bring forth more children. Instead of him devoting his life to his mighty son, he married again and Indis bore him two more sons, Fingolfin and Finarfin. This of course caused great strife and jealousy for the affections of Finwe between Feanor and his half brothers.

From the Silmarillion:

Quote:

many saw the effect of the breach within the House of Finwe, judging that if Finwe had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Feanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwe is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves. But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been dimisnished.

afro-elf · 05-22-2002, 10:16 PM

but that would mean no finrod

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-22-2002, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
but that would mean no finrod

True, had Finwe decided not to wed Indis. Still because of the choices made by Feanor's parents, the outcome had much to do I think with Feanor's behavior.

***azalea*** · 05-23-2002, 02:16 PM

Okay, but I saw her "illness" as more an involuntary thing, I wouldn't have thought to blame her, but perhaps if she had endured he wouldn't have had the jealousy or what have you. Still, if he reacted that way, perhaps he was already predisposed to being an "upstart" and would have been the same even if she had been there?
I would place more blame on the father, I mean, he could have waited a while longer to remarry, it's not like he didn't have eternity!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-23-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
Okay, but I saw her "illness" as more an involuntary thing, I wouldn't have thought to blame her, but perhaps if she had endured he wouldn't have had the jealousy or what have you. Still, if he reacted that way, perhaps he was already predisposed to being an "upstart" and would have been the same even if she had been there?
I would place more blame on the father, I mean, he could have waited a while longer to remarry, it's not like he didn't have eternity!

Feanor's mother did not have an illness. Elves knew no such thing. Feanor's mother made a choice not to continue. She felt drained after his birth, but she could have been healed in Lorien and chose not to be.

Tar-Elendil · 05-23-2002, 02:40 PM

from The Silmarillion
"The love of FinwÃ« and MÃ*riel was great and glad, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss. But in the bearing of her son MÃ*riel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to FinwÃ«: "Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into FÃ«anor.'"
it goes on saying:
"..and he said: "Surely there is healing in Aman? Here all weariness can find rest."
then she went to LÃ³rien and "lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the Halls of Mandos."

Radagast The Brown · 05-25-2002, 05:55 AM

Quote:

originally posted by Tar-ElendilBut even less woes wouldnt have happened if the two trees werent created by yavanna. blame yavanna! not feanor!

I think you can't blame Yavanna. You should blame Eru that created Yavanna.

now really no one could blame Yavanna. I could blame Feanor that didn't want to give the Valar the Silmarilion, and Melkor that stole them and destroyed the trees.

We can't blame Feanor's mother on something bad she didn't expect from her powers will kill her son and lots of the the Noldor.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 05-25-2002, 02:38 PM

I agree it is absurd to blame Yavanna. What she did was good and she did it for good reasons.

But I don't agree that MÃ*riel ÃžerindÃ« was blameless. ManwÃ« and Mandos and other Valar agreed that MÃ*riel was not blameless. She was tainted in some way, because death is for Elves unnatural. If an Elf craves death and dies willingly it is usually (I would think LÃºthien is among the exceptions) because of some taint in the fÃ«a or "soul". The death of MÃ*riel was described as the first sign of the shadow that would fall on the Blessed Land. Finwe even begged MÃ*riel to return, but she never did, really uncaring about his suffering, thinking only of herself. Everything turned out alright in the end for Finwe and MÃ*riel*, but MÃ*riel caused a lot of suffering. She didn't mean to cause everyone grief and it's not entirely her fault there was a problem with her fea, but she was cold and indifferent in the face of a valid plea from one who loved her and from one whom she loved. For all she knew she was dooming Finwe to be forever sundered from her, and alone, because Elves never remarried. Anyway you spin it, we're talking about agony until the End. That is what she should be blamed for, in my proud opinion.

Ultimately, the blame always goes back to Melkor MoriÃ±gotho, the Dark Enemy who planted the first seed of evil in himself, that first seed of evil that spread like wildfire. All evil goes back to him.

*Supposedly when Finwe died they met again and dwelt together in the Halls of Mandos or the House of Vaire, until the end of Time. It is implied in the Peoples of Middle-earth, the Shibboleth of FÃ«anor, that this did not cause Indis grief.

Tar-Elendil · 05-26-2002, 11:45 AM

Quote:

I agree it is absurd to blame Yavanna. What she did was good and she did it for good reasons.

::Tar-Elendil takes out a box of sarcasm and thorws it in your face::
i was being sarcastic

thought you woulda know for the "

"

afro-elf · 05-26-2002, 12:41 PM

edit: error

Radagast The Brown · 05-26-2002, 03:02 PM

Quote:

::Tar-Elendil takes out a box of sarcasm and thorws it in your face::
i was being sarcastic

thought you woulda know for the "

"

Thought so. You did that smile (

).Still, I was have to do something. You can't blame Yavanna, even not sarcasticly.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 05-26-2002, 03:55 PM

Tar-Elendil, thanks for clearing that up. I don't put much in the smileys. I've heard some pretty cooky ideas here before so I really wouldn't be surprized if someone wanted to blame Yavanna for the Fall of the Noldor. Tom Bombadil is, after all, Tulkas, isn't he?

Tar-Elendil · 05-26-2002, 04:00 PM

05-22-2002, 08:42 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	feanor a villian I could have forgiven feanor for all things save for dying command he knew that his sons could not win and he doomed them all ( all people of ME) with his dying wish to doom yourself is one thing but to drag your children and an entire population is unforgiveable sort of like osama dooming all of afghanistan it seems tolkien reoccurring sins are pride and greed __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-22-2002, 05:15 PM	#3
Tar-Elendil NÃºmenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	i believe they swore the oath at tirion. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-22-2002, 05:49 PM	#4
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	I think he's the bad guy even without his dying wish. It would have been better had he died at birth. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

05-22-2002, 06:01 PM	#5
Tar-Elendil NÃºmenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	i dont think he was a villain. i believe his pride sometimes got in the way of wisdom like what happened when he swore the oath. i believe he had such pride that people often mistakes him as a villain. aye, if they had not swore their oath many woes wouldnt have occured. But even less woes wouldnt have happened if the two trees werent created by yavanna. blame yavanna! not feanor! __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-22-2002, 10:16 PM	#9
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	but that would mean no finrod __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-22-2002, 06:15 PM	#6
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	I think we should give some of the blame to Feanor's mother.

05-22-2002, 07:30 PM	#7
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Why is that? (I have just been reading it, so I am looking for some good "analysis" ).

05-23-2002, 02:16 PM	#11
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Okay, but I saw her "illness" as more an involuntary thing, I wouldn't have thought to blame her, but perhaps if she had endured he wouldn't have had the jealousy or what have you. Still, if he reacted that way, perhaps he was already predisposed to being an "upstart" and would have been the same even if she had been there? I would place more blame on the father, I mean, he could have waited a while longer to remarry, it's not like he didn't have eternity!

05-23-2002, 02:40 PM	#13
Tar-Elendil NÃºmenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	from The Silmarillion "The love of FinwÃ« and MÃriel was great and glad, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss. But in the bearing of her son MÃriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to FinwÃ«: "Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into FÃ«anor.'" it goes on saying: "..and he said: "Surely there is healing in Aman? Here all weariness can find rest." then she went to LÃ³rien and "lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the Halls of Mandos." __________________ Why can we not be sober..

05-25-2002, 02:38 PM	#15
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I agree it is absurd to blame Yavanna. What she did was good and she did it for good reasons. But I don't agree that MÃriel ÃžerindÃ« was blameless. ManwÃ« and Mandos and other Valar agreed that MÃriel was not blameless. She was tainted in some way, because death is for Elves unnatural. If an Elf craves death and dies willingly it is usually (I would think LÃºthien is among the exceptions) because of some taint in the fÃ«a or "soul". The death of MÃriel was described as the first sign of the shadow that would fall on the Blessed Land. Finwe even begged MÃriel to return, but she never did, really uncaring about his suffering, thinking only of herself. Everything turned out alright in the end for Finwe and MÃriel, but MÃriel caused a lot of suffering. She didn't mean to cause everyone grief and it's not entirely her fault there was a problem with her fea, but she was cold and indifferent in the face of a valid plea from one who loved her and from one whom she loved. For all she knew she was dooming Finwe to be forever sundered from her, and alone, because Elves never remarried. Anyway you spin it, we're talking about agony until the End. That is what she should be blamed for, in my proud opinion. Ultimately, the blame always goes back to Melkor MoriÃ±gotho, the Dark Enemy who planted the first seed of evil in himself, that first seed of evil that spread like wildfire. All evil goes back to him. Supposedly when Finwe died they met again and dwelt together in the Halls of Mandos or the House of Vaire, until the end of Time. It is implied in the Peoples of Middle-earth, the Shibboleth of FÃ«anor, that this did not cause Indis grief. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ã‘Ã³lendil : 05-25-2002 at 02:46 PM.

05-26-2002, 12:41 PM	#17
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	edit: error __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-26-2002, 03:55 PM	#19
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Tar-Elendil, thanks for clearing that up. I don't put much in the smileys. I've heard some pretty cooky ideas here before so I really wouldn't be surprized if someone wanted to blame Yavanna for the Fall of the Noldor. Tom Bombadil is, after all, Tulkas, isn't he? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

05-26-2002, 04:00 PM	#20
Tar-Elendil NÃºmenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	lol __________________ Why can we not be sober..

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