Eru/Fate

[jammi567]

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history, even with Eru? Or was Eru the creater of Fate along with everything else, and because of this, doesn't have to live by the Rules that He created as much?

I hope we can get a good disscussion out of this.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by jammi567

On the topic of the Valar and Eru, if Eru hadn't shown them the vision of the World and it's unfolding history, would the Valar have done anything different, or would they still do the same things because Fate was directing the course of history, even with Eru? Or was Eru the creater of Fate along with everything else, and because of this, doesn't have to live by the Rules that He created as much?

I hope we can get a good disscussion out of this.

The Athrabeth talks on this to a point. A better question might be: how would the vision and unfolding of the world have been if Melkor had not caused discord in the music.

[jammi567]

ok. well, i like to believe that without melkors discord that the good things in the story would last longer and be better, and that because of him not upseting the music, whether he would either a) forget his pride and anger and go back to the good side, or b) retain a bit of his evilness and bitterness, but make it like thingols and feanors respectively.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by jammi567

ok. well, i like to believe that without melkors discord that the good things in the story would last longer and be better, and that because of him not upseting the music, whether he would either a) forget his pride and anger and go back to the good side, or b) retain a bit of his evilness and bitterness, but make it like thingols and feanors respectively.

The question certianly does place the reader in the "what if" position, which leaves room for a multitude of speculations. I believe that Eru was God and therefore the creator. Was he flawed in his creation or in the way he did it? Perhaps. IIRC, he left the Valar pretty much innocent and ignorant in what was going on, and revealed things to them little by little. Each of the Valar were made from a different portion of Illuvar's thought and were suppose to work in unison. However, it seems the more he revealed to them, the more they became independent of his thought. I think that once Melkor reached this point of knowledge, this is when the discord arose and the flaw in the creation occurred. Could Illuvatar have done more at that point to undo it? Did he let Melkor go too far? Melkor like the other Valar was the offspring of Eru's own thought. I'm not sure Melkor was ever good, but was just less bad in his ignorance than when Eru revealed more.

[jammi567]

i think that by the time Eru had made the Song, He knew it was already too late for Melkor to redem himself "But being alone he had began to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his breathen." So in knowing this, He just left it to be because there was nothing he could do about it. And also, of course, it proves that even before Ea was made, evil was already manifesting itself.

A question to ask ourself is what if Melkor had supressed his pride, sang about good things in the creation song, but turned truely evil after it had finished? Plus, would the elves, men etc have still been created if there had been no discord within the Music?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by jammi567

A question to ask ourself is what if Melkor had supressed his pride, sang about good things in the creation song, but turned truely evil after it had finished? Plus, would the elves, men etc have still been created if there had been no discord within the Music?

Had Melkor supressed his evil and put good things into the Music, then the world itself would not have been plagued with some of the viles that diseased the lands, because he wouldn't have placed his power into the earth. But I don't kmow that turning evil or revealing his evil after the forming of the world, that it would have been any different.

I think Elves, Men, etc would have still been created especially had there been no discord in the Music, because that was the plan, and inspite of Melkor causing discord, the plan proceeded anyway.

[jammi567]

[QUOTE=Sister Golden Hair] But I don't kmow that turning evil or revealing his evil after the forming of the world, that it would have been any different.QUOTE]

Why wouldn't it have been different. If what Eru showed the Valar in the vision of Ea was future events, then how would Melkors evil actions and pride have effected anything.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Why wouldn't it have been different. If what Eru showed the Valar in the vision of Ea was future events, then how would Melkors evil actions and pride have effected anything.

Because according to Morgoth's Ring, Melkor placed his greater power into the world itself and made Arda corrupt. The Valar were spent in trying to clean up after him. Each time they made something fair, he would corrupt it until the Valar were exhausted and unable to repair his evil.

[jammi567]

With the Valar cleaning with Melkor's evil, do you think, for at the time, that they were doing it for themselves, or for the Children? Do you think that they would've worked as hard if they knew when they were going to awaken?

Having seen the Vision of what was to come, don't you think they should've done something more to punish Melkor? Or was there nothing they could do to change events as they happened in the book?

[durinsbane2244]

tolkien was Catholic. Eru Illuvitar is clearly God. thus, we can see that the Valar are the angels. BUT! there is a difference! after the initial changing of the song by Melkor, Eru forgives him, and shows him that his wrong has made it better, making rain and mist and snow and such. this is important, because Melkor does settle down, and it shows that once he turns evil again, it's even worse, because he's been forgiven already. and than, of course, maia follow him, [a third of the angels rebel with Satan] and, well, we all know what happens. as in Creation, Eru could very well have fixed it, but, like God, he believed that his Creations should be able to do as they wish. so they cast Melkor out of Arda, as Satan was cast from Heaven, and he made his abode in Utumno...Hell...and than, blast it, i can't recall the name...the battle where the Valar finally intervene...that's Revelations...they cast him out permanatly...pretty much...

so i guess that whole point of that is that Eru could've intervened, but didn't...he is God, and is above all powers...such as fate...

[jammi567]

i'm not a Catholic or Christian myself, so i never thought of it that way.

Having read your post, why do you think Eru didn't step in when he could clearly see things going bad (eg. killing trees, slaying at Alqualonde etc). Or do you believe that He couldn't intervine because it was already set out in the Creation song, or because He wanted to let everyone have a free choice to do what they believed was right, even if it was considered wrong to others.

Phew *whipes forehead*. This took me 15 minutes to write!

[durinsbane2244]

same reason God doesn't intervene or didn't...free will...he made us free, Eru made them free...free to make their own decisions, and free to suffer the consequences, and free to fix the problems they make...

[jammi567]

nice ideas, but what was the point then in showing them the Vision of events on Ea if in the end, they have a free will to change that Vision.

[durinsbane2244]

well, i can answer that too! this is cool, because i can give the catholic interpretation and know it's most likely true because of tolkien! [i too am catholic] it's just like God in real life, he knows what will happen, but he won't change it. we truly do choose what we do, but he knows what we will choose. even knowing this, he still gives us the option,and we still make the choice. so, even with the vision of the future, it all happens nonetheless. it's like, as life goes on, they did make their own choices, and Eru let them. he just knew what would end up happening.

i hope you can get that. it's a hard concept to grasp, and most can't.

[jammi567]

i get what you're saying, but having let them see the Vision, and presumaly see the choice they would have to make, the choice wouldn't be a choice because they would've seen themself make it, and so it would become a forced action, if you see what i mean.

I hope that makes sense to you.

[durinsbane2244]

it's not a forced action. it's more, "hey, you can do whatever you want. BUT, because i'm omniscient, i know what you're going to do. here it is." so they still had the choice, but maybe he showing them the vision changed the future, so the vision changed. the future is constantly changing, with every choice we make, so maybe showing them that did change it. i don't know. maybe showing them that made them think, "hey, things turn out alright eventually...cool" and they went about they're buisness. i don't know, again. point being, they made their own choices freely.

[jammi567]

i really like how, in this particular thread at least, you can apply your religion to something to make it...believeable, and something that we could apply to ourselves, if you see what i mean.

[durinsbane2244]

yes...it's good to have tolkien for this, because, lot's of times i will apply Catholicism to something, and people will say, "well, that's just your religion", but because it's tolkien and he had a lot of religious reference, it's right here!

[jammi567]

yes because i don't think that a lot of people knew that Tolkin was a Catholic and that those beliefs rubbed off onto his writing, even if in some cases he didn't realize that he was doing it.

[durinsbane2244]

true, but the Silmarillion is a tad obvious...