Húrin's Ordeal

[Maedhros]

Húrin is regarded as the mightiest warrior to ever lived.

Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.

Before he left for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad:

Then Morwen bade farewell to Húrin without tears; and she said: "I will guard what you leave in my keeping, both what is and what shall be."

And Húrin answered her: "Farewell, Lady of Dor-lómin; we ride now with greater hope than ever we have known before. Let us think that at this midwinter the feast shall be merrier than in all our years yet, with a fearless spring to follow after!" Then he lifted Túrin to his shoulder, and cried to his men: "Let the heir of the House of Hador see the light of your swords' And the sun glittered on fifty blades as they leaped forth, an(fl the court rang with the battle-cry of the Edain of the North: Lacho calad! Drego morn! Flame Light! Flee Night!

Húrin defied the greatest being in the entire world:

Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew by his arts and his spies that Húrin had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; and he sought to daunt him with his eyes. Nut Húrin could not yet be daunted, and be defied Morgoth. Therefore Morgoth had him chained and set in slow torment; but after a while he came to him, and offered him his choice to go free whither he would, or to receive power and rank as the greatest of Morgoth's captains, if he would but reveal where Turgon had his stronghold, and aught else that he knew of the King's counsels. But Húrin the Steadfast mocked him saying: "Blind you are Morgoth Bauglir, and blind shall ever be, seeing only the dark. You know not what rules the hearts of Men, and if you knew you could not give it. But a fool is he who accepts what Morgoth offers. You will take first the price and then withhold the promise; and I should get only death, if I told you what you ask."

"This last then I will say to you, thrall Morgoth," said Húrin, "and it comes not from the lore of the Eldar, but is put into my heart in this hour. You are not the Lord of Men, and shall not be, though all Arda and Menel fall in your dominion. Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

Húrin was later released by Morgoth:

When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Húrin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Húrin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

In the end, he was reconciled with his wife:

But Húrin did not look at the stone, for he knew what was written there; and his eyes had seen that he was not alone. Sitting in the shadow of the stone there was a woman, bent over her knees; and as Húrin stood there silent she cast back her tattered hood and lifted her face. Grey she was and old, but suddenly her eyes looked into his, and he knew her; for though they were wild and full of fear, that light still gleamed in them that long ago had earned for her the name Eledhwen, proudest and most beautiful of mortal women in the days of old.

But Húrin did not answer, and they sat beside the stone, and did not speak again; and when the sun went down Morwen sighed and clasped his hand, and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died. He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. 'She was not conquered,' he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat unmoving beside her as the night drew down. The waters of Cabed Naeramarth roared on, but he heard no sound, and he saw nothing, and felt nothing, for his heart was stone within him. But there came a chill wind that drove sharp rain into his face; and he was roused, and anger rose in him like smoke, mastering reason, so that all his desire was to seek vengeance for his wrongs and for the wrongs of his kin, accusing in his anguish all those who ever had dealings with them. Then he rose up, and he made a grave for Morwen above Cabed Naeramarth on the west side of the stone; and upon it he cut these words: Here lies also Morwen Eledhwen.

In the end, with all that happened to him,
Was he conquered by Morgoth or not?

[Reumandar]

In my oppinion I don't think so. If that where me I probably would have tried to comite suiscide or somthing. I think he was the best for the job. His story was so sad but he won in the end ( in my opinnion of course )

[Sister Golden Hair]

As Finrod said to Andreth Maedhros, "Ever you amaze my thought." This is another tough one. I wouldn't say that he was conquered in the end because he lived, but it would seem that the curse of Morgoth did come full circle when Morwen died.

It is sad that he spent all those years in captivity, tight liped about the location of Gondolin, and then when he is released makes his way there and only gets to a point and can go no further and calls out to Turgon. That seems so foolish after all he went through to conceal that secret. Very sad life for the man.

[afro-elf]

Húrin is regarded as the mightiest warrior to ever lived.

I think that it says "mortal" or "of the race of Men"

[Maedhros]

I think that it says "mortal" or "of the race of Men"

I was reffering to Men.
Although he was greatly affected by Morgoth, I think that Húrin was not conquered by Morgoth. He defied him and he lived long enough to see his wife in the end.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Was he conquered by Morgoth or not?

I think Húrin was NOT conquered. His son, however, is a different story, and I would like to start a thread about that soon. What a tragic story, though.

[Artanis]

No, Húrin wasn't conquered, he never gave in to Morgoth. But at SGH said, it was a bit foolish to go straight to Turgon after he was released, revealing his realm to the spies of Morgoth. And in Doriath he needed help from Melian to fully understand what Morgoth had deviced for him.

[Rían]

Yes, it wasn't exactly good thinking, but if anyone could be excused for being a bit wonky and not thinking with crystal clarity , it would be Húrin, after all that he had gone through.

I like that section, Artanis, when Melian ignores Húrin's insults, which were really pretty nasty, and goes straight to the heart of the matter, which was that he was seeing things all twisted because of Morgoth's lies. I think it was very gracious of her to not "take offense", because she knew he wasn't thinking right. And Húrin's response was so gracious, too, when he realized the truth of what she was saying. What a man!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, it wasn't exactly good thinking, but if anyone could be excused for being a bit wonky and not thinking with crystal clarity , it would be Húrin, after all that he had gone through.

You're right, and he was still under Morgoth's influence, and he was lonely because all living creatures shunned him, sensing where he came from.

I like that section, Artanis, when Melian ignores Húrin's insults, which were really pretty nasty, and goes straight to the heart of the matter, which was that he was seeing things all twisted because of Morgoth's lies. I think it was very gracious of her to not "take offense", because she knew he wasn't thinking right. And Húrin's response was so gracious, too, when he realized the truth of what she was saying. What a man!

I was deeply touched by that scene too. Melian was wise. But also Thingol acted wisely on that particular occasion. And Húrin certainly showed his noblesse with his last words to Thingol.

[Findegil]

I am very sad to do that, but well it must be!
The story of Húrins realise is given as far as his going towards Nargothrond in "The History of Middle-Earth" volume 11. It is called "Húrins Wanderings" and it makes his story much more sad then it is described in "The Silmarillion" and also his deeds show much more foolishness. I will only give a short summary: First he goes to Hithlum. But he only gathered a small band of outlaws and can't cause a general rebellion. There upon he gives the land to Lorgan the Easterling and left with his band towards Brethil. But when they reached the dale of Sirion he steels away from his companion and searches for Gondolin, ending with his cry for Turgon like it is in "The Silmarillion". His companions went into Brethil but are dealed with like outlaws and deported to the Teglin crossing. When Húrin went away from Gondolin despairing in his search he goes to the stone and finds Morwen. Embittered by her starving in the wild without help from the people of Brethil he goes to Ephel Brandir. His coming and his deeds caused a civil war among the folk of Haleth in which the last descendants of Haleth died and the community was broken.
With that the full-written story ends but we learn out of some notes that, Húrin went to the Teglin-crossing and joined there his companions again. They were joined also by some people of Brethil and went forth to Nargothrond.

That is all that JRR Tolkien wrote about the story late in his life. The chapter "Of the ruin of Doriath" is entirely the product of Christopher Tolkien. And there are a lot of things in it that are not at all even suggested by writings of his father. One of these is the making of the NauglamÃ*r for Felagund. In any version of JRR Tolkien Húrin brings the full treasure of Nargothrond to Thingol and the NauglamÃ*r is made in Menegroth.
A second more important thing is the final deliverance of Húrin from the spell of Morgoth by Melian. That is an invention of Christopher Tolkien. As far as we know JRR Tolkien envisaged him going forth from Menegroth in embitterment.

We do not know how JRR Tolkien had seen the death of Húrin but I don't think he would have outlived the realisation of his deeds (I think he killed himself when he realised what he had done under the spell).

Before I had read "The History of Middle-Earth" Húrin was my favourite character in Tolkiens-World, and it was really very sad for me to read "Húrins Wanderings", but the Narn i chîn Húrin is a tragedy and that doesn't allow any kind of happy end at all.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

Findegil, I'm speechless. Are you saying Christopher Tolkien invented what happened in Doriath? And that the spell actually was not broken as long as Húrin lived? Shocking news, that is. Still, perhaps, JRRT's version is more realistic, given the power of Morgoth and the long years of Húrin's captiveness.

But I won't change my opinion about the Man. Few could have endured the malice of Morgoth better than he did. But I have to change my mind and say he was conquered, and he carried out his deeds exactly to Morgoth's wish. And that's what makes this version much more sad than the story in the Sil.

Well, one good thing is, I understand there's treasures waiting for me in HoME!

[Reumandar]

In the silmarillion when the blanket is lifted (or whatever you like to call it) from his eyes, he says something about he didn't know why but he was sapposed to leave the NaglÃ*mer with king Thingol
and that he had finished all that Morgoth meant for him to do... OR am I totally wrong (don't have the book in hand right now, sister borowed it)

[markedel]

Oh the ruin of Doriath is conjecture, and the mythology itself is extremely contradictory. I say enjoy the Silmarillion, and don't worry so much about what is "canon"

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
I was deeply touched by that scene too. Melian was wise. But also Thingol acted wisely on that particular occasion. And Húrin certainly showed his noblesse with his last words to Thingol.

Yes, he sure did. And I got mixed up and attributed something to Melian that Thingol actually did - this part:

and well did he understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn.

Now that was noble.

And don't change your mind!! Húrin wasn't conquered - he may have carried out Morgoth's deeds, but it was not knowingly. The cry to Turgon was not out of the intent to reveal his hiding place, but out of agony. Don't you think so?

[Rían]

Originally posted by markedel
I say enjoy the Silmarillion, and don't worry so much about what is "canon"

Hear, hear!! Although I enjoy reading the different versions, I don't get uptight about which one is "right" (and neither do most of the people here, too, thank goodness!)

Findegil - yes, it is a tragedy, and there is no happy ending, but there are some beautiful and noble things that happen in the story that we can admire. (ps - I like how you sign your name with "respectfully" - it's so nice and courteous!)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And don't change your mind!! Húrin wasn't conquered - he may have carried out Morgoth's deeds, but it was not knowingly. The cry to Turgon was not out of the intent to reveal his hiding place, but out of agony. Don't you think so?

I'm not changing my opinion of the worth and greatness of the man. But if I underestand Findegil right, JRRT's version does not include the rising of Morgoth's spell from Húrin. That is why I think he was conquered. We must remember Húrin was a man, and Morgoth was a Maia. It's only natural, if not inevitable, that Morgoth would beat him.

In the Sil version he was not conquered, but he needed help from a Maia: With the assistance of Melian, he relieves himself from Morgoth. His last words to Thingol is significant: "But I am his thrall no more".

[Rían]

I guess I'm thinking of "conquered" in terms of giving up and making intentional evil choices as a pattern in your life. I think when there is a "spell" on someone, it's not their fault. I see frustration, poor judgement, etc. in Húrin, but I don't see him "giving in" to Morgoth like many other "evil men" referred to by JRRT (i.e., those that openly serve Morgoth).

Maybe we mean the same thing? However, the whole "thrall" issue is complicated, and JRRT was of several minds about it himself.

And I really enjoy your avatar whenever I see one of your posts

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I guess I'm thinking of "conquered" in terms of giving up and making intentional evil choices as a pattern in your life.

I would say in JRRT's version Húrin was conquered because he didn't manage to relieve himself from the spell, and by the spell was "forced" to do evil deeds until he died. His thoughts and will were dominated by Morgoth. That's not quite the same as your definition. I would agree that by your definition he was not conquered.

I think when there is a "spell" on someone, it's not their fault.

I agree to this.

And I really enjoy your avatar whenever I see one of your posts

Well, I'm glad you like it. You may want to look at the whole picture here.

[Rían]

And I would agree that by your definition that he was indeed conquered, too. I think we are thinking the same way - great minds think alike, don't they?

WOW - thanks so much for the link - that's really lovely! I've never seen any LoTR art, perhaps I should start checking it out. Do you have any other links or suggestions?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And I would agree that by your definition that he was indeed conquered, too. I think we are thinking the same way - great minds think alike, don't they?

You said it!

WOW - thanks so much for the link - that's really lovely! I've never seen any LoTR art, perhaps I should start checking it out. Do you have any other links or suggestions?

You can check out this thread, I will post a link there.