One Ring Timeline

[Insidious Rex]

Thought I would share this with my fellow mooters: Visual timeline of the One Ring

[Valandil]

Nice share! Thank you!

[Golthem]

Thanks! I like it.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Thought I would share this with my fellow mooters: Visual timeline of the One Ring

I completely forgot that Tom Bombadil wore the ring! Although to be honest, did he actually wear it 100%? Wasn't it placed at the tip of his finger or something..?

[Insidious Rex]

This one is even more impressive. Timeline of the Elves. Could pour over this all day. Wouldnt mind a poster size version actually.

[Varnafindë]

That one certainly takes some study. Very impressive.
Thanks for sharing, again!

[The Gaffer]

Blimey. Which is to say, groovy.

Some stuff that's surprising:

• The relatively short-lived duration of Gondolin, Nargorthrond etc.
• What did they get up to the rest of the time??

Some stuff that I don't get:

• Tatyar, Minyar, Nelyar???
• Wasn't Celeborn Sindarin?
• I always wondered what happened to the Avari. And how do they know there was a branching-off in the SA?
• Lindon/Mithlond - What's going on there?

Answers on a postcard please!

[Valandil]

I think there were two different versions of Celeborn's background.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I completely forgot that Tom Bombadil wore the ring! Although to be honest, did he actually wear it 100%? Wasn't it placed at the tip of his finger or something..?

Sort of. My guess is the Ring kinda resisted and shrunk a bit so Tom could have worn it fully, even if he wanted to. Probably didn't like to have so little regard shown to it, Tim Bombadil was the only one to be totally unimpressed by the trinket.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

[*]Tatyar, Minyar, Nelyar???

I believe they're older names, coming from the writing and notes that didn't make it into the Silmarillion, and were collected in HoME.

I always wondered what happened to the Avari. And how do they know there was a branching-off in the SA?

That has intrigued me also for some time. Where did the Avari go? And how did they fare?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Some stuff that I don't get:[*]Tatyar, Minyar, Nelyar???

The names Minyar, Tatyar and Nelyar mean 'Firsts, Seconds, Thirds' and are early (internally early) numerical names for the three clans. These names appear in the Elf-child's tale (which includes counting lore) of the Awakening of the Quendi, and in Quendi And Eldar as well if I recall correctly.

[*]Wasn't Celeborn Sindarin?

In posthumously published texts Celeborn was arguably part of various clans... but yes, he is explicitly Sindarin in things Tolkien himself published.

[*]I always wondered what happened to the Avari. And how do they know there was a branching-off in the SA?

I think that's based on description in Tolkien's Quendi And Eldar where some Avari are noted as migrating to the Anduin Vale (I can't recall at the moment about the dating however, without looking up the actual citation).

Some Avarin Elves were noted as reaching Beleriand, but in a later text Of Dwarves And Men Tolkien at least appears to have revised this.

[*]Lindon/Mithlond - What's going on there?

I'm not sure I fully understand this question... so I'll guess at an answer: negative 4?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

[*]I always wondered what happened to the Avari. And how do they know there was a branching-off in the SA?[/LIST]

I think this is a reference to the merging of some of the Avari with elves from both the Sindarian line and the Nandorian line producing the Silvan. At least thats how I read that.

[Lefty Scaevola]

IIRC from somewhere in HoME, during the first parts of the 2nd age, many Avari clans, both Nelyar and Tatyar based, spread out in Eriador in between the Noldor/Sindar/Nandor/Silvan fusion kingdoms, but were largely wipe out or driven into the kingdoms during the War of Elves and Sauron. I recall an article naming 5 separate clans of Tatyarin Avari, and 1 of Nelyarin Avari. Iwould guess it is in the Quendi and Eldar essay somewhere.

[Galin]

Some descriptions according to Quendi And Eldar (1959-1960, noted as Q&E below). But see below where I think it's at least possible that Tolkien might have rejected certain ideas.

Avari in Beleriand (Q&E)

Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South. (...)

The Avari thus remained the chief examples of Moerbin. Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben; but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves. (...)

Such Avari as came into Beleriand were, as has been said, called Morben, or Mornedhel. (...)

Eol was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the Ñoldor* [footnote by CJRT]


*It is curious that - as in the original text of Maeglin, where he was 'of the kin of Thingol' - in my father's very late work on the story Eol becomes again 'one of the Eldar' (p. 328), though consumed with hatred of the Ñoldor; whereas here he is a Mornedhel (one of the Avari), and moreover of the aboriginal Second Clan.'

Vale of Anduin (Q&E)

The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Ñoldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance. (...)

For in contrast the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.

They had evidently continued to call themselves *kwendī, the People, regarding those who went away as deserters (...) The Avarin forms cited by the Loremasters were: kindi, cuind, hwenti, windan, kinn-lai, penni. The last is interesting as showing the change kw > p. This might be independent of the Common Telerin change; but it suggests that it had already occurred among the Lindar before the Separation. The form penni is cited as coming from the 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the remnants of the Sindar.

So here the Lindarin, or Nelyarin Avari, appear to have merged with the Elves of the Anduin Vale, and even in Eriador. Above we have Eol being one of the Tatyarin Avari (the Second Clan), but this appears to have been rejected later. In Words, Phrases and Passages (without checking I think this section might have been written around the same time as Quendi and Eldar):

'Avari would not, at this period, be found West of the Misty Mountains. In Eriador such Elves as remained, or were gathered under the protection of Elrond, were either Nandor, or else Sindar and Noldor...'

Although 'at this period' (Frodo's time I as I interpret the fuller passage) may leave the possibility open that some Avari had crossed over Eriador long ago to make it into Beleriand, and that some still survived in Eriador up until some point before the period of the Quest of the One Ring.


Avari in Beleriand according to Of Dwarves And Men (1968 or later)

'It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.

Christopher Tolkien footnotes this statement to compare it to the earlier description in Quendi And Eldar. There is also the question of Avari in the Anduin Vale. In Of Dwarves And Men is found the classification of Elves by the Atani (not the same as the classifications made by the Elves themselves however):

High Elves: returned Noldor
Middle Elves: Sindar
Dark Elves: those who had never marched to the Western Shores and did not desire to see Aman.

According to this the 'Dark Elves' seem like the Avari to me, and it is noted that the Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Numenoreans, although unknown to the Atani until later days, as they were like the Sindar Teleri...

'... but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the vales of Anduin. (of these Lorien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were later survivors in the Third Age).'

So the Silvan Elves are Middle Elves, as they are Teleri, not 'Dark Elves' according to Men at least. And that the Silvan Elves are Telerin in origin is repeated in other late notes, including Appendix A to The History of Galadriel And Celeborn, The Silvan Elves And Their Speech: here the Silvan Elves are...

'... specifically declared to be descended from the Telerin Elves who remained in the Vale of Anduin.' [and they] '... hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people hardly to be distinguished from Avari.'

Unfinished Tales

But 'hardly to be distinguished' from Avari seemingly yet distinguishes them. Were they later joined by Avari in any case?


So from Q&E Avari ever having been in Beleriand seems rejected (as well as Eol being an Avar from the Second Clan). And whether or not they had been in Eriador seems a bit unclear in my opinion (so far), but at least there were seemingly none in Frodo's day. And whether or not any of the Avarin Penni, for example, ultimately merged with these Teleri in the Anduin Vale does not seem to be mentioned in later texts, that I recall so far anyway.

There may be more texts to help sort things out. Anyone? One could easily enough say that Quendi And Eldar is the more detailed account, and that other later texts about the Silvan Elves simply leave out this detail. This seems to be the opinion of the chart marker (or makers) here, but it remains at least possible, I think (again if nothing else surfaces that I've forgotten), that Tolkien maybe later abandoned the idea of any Avari here.

According to The Lord of the Rings the 'East-elves' of Mirkwood and Lorien (there said to not be Eldar, but yet the East-elves are not said to be Avari specifically) seemingly can sail West Over Sea, considering Nimrodel and other Silvan Elves for example.

Would a true Avarin Elf, a 'Refuser', desire this, even if allowed? But again, being able to sail, or desiring to anyway, may be true of the East-elves in general, while a more detailed conception possibly includes some Nelyarin Avari...

... or not