Independance Day:- A Black Day for Brits?

[Radagast]

I'm a U.K. subject but have found it hard to gauge the attitude of Brits toward Independance Day. Certainly there were no mass celebrations or any visible sign of happiness but do we feel a sense of loss or do we let take the attitude its long in the past and we should not feel anything? Or should we join in the celebrations for people who fought and blew up our ancestors?

I also saw a statement somewhere, can't remember exactly where, saying that slavery was abolished in the British Empire 30 years before it was in the U.S? That true?

[Ruinel]

Slavery was made illegal in France and England (not sure which other countries also) before the U.S., that is sadly true.

I have never really thought that any other country should celebrate our independence. I'm not sure what you mean by their attitude toward it. In the US, we don't celebrate that our ancestors (or actually, not mine b/c I'm first born generation American) were oppressed, deprived of liberties, imprisoned, etc, before and during the war, nor do we celebrate that they died terrible deaths to make this country free. We celebrate their sacrifice for a free nation.

But hey! We'd love for you to join in the celebration. Next year, pull up a lawn chair, grab a plate of bar-b-q and a beer and watch the fireworks with us.

[Falagar]

It's like asking how the Swedes should react towards Norwegians when we're celebrating our national day. Of course, we managed it without violence



(Just kidding )

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
It's like asking how the Swedes should react towards Norwegians when we're celebrating our national day. Of course, we managed it without violence :P



(Just kidding )

Without violence? Well, what fun is that? You really missed out.

[jerseydevil]

We tried without violence. At first Independence was NOT the goal.

As for what we celebrate on the 4th of July it is a celebation of us DECARING Independence - through the Declaration of Independence. This is when we declared we were free and independent countries. In all actuality between the time of the Declaration of Independence and the ratification of the Constitution - the states were independent countries in a treaty. We all had our own currency, we had our own armies, we had basically our own treaties with countries, we controlled our own commerce. This is stated clearly in Article III of the Articles of Confederation

Article III

The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever.

As for slavery - the US itself did not make it illegal for slavery until the Civil War. It was known at the time of the Declaration of Independence - as well as the Constitutional Convention (which is actually the full birth of our nation) that not addressing slavery would cause problems in the future. The north needed the south and the south refused to give up slavery. The north had abolished slavery and also - no importing of slaves were allowed. Slavery was only permitted for existing slaves. Also - North America - particularly America - recieved very few slaves. Brazil - received the most slaves - 23% of slaves went to Brazil. England was NOT innocent in slavery in the US after 1776 - even up to the civil war. England SUPPORTED the south during the civil war - of course england just want the US to destrpy itself so then England could then and pick up the pieces and regain the old "colonies".

As for whether England should celebrate it or how they should feel about it. I don't think you should celebrate it. Maybe be happy that today we are allies - after a century of you trying to destroy us repeatedly - but it's not an English holiday - anymore than we would celebrate Guy Fawkes Day.

You'll have to determine how you should feel. But the whole reason we sought independence was because you had an idiotic king. King George III was tearing up our charters, blockading our ports, restricting our imports to only British goods, illegal searching ships and houses, taxing us without any representation, etc, etc, etc. All our grievances are listed in the Declaration of Independence. If the grievances had been addressed when they were brought to his attention initially by Benjamin Franklin - who at first was against independence - there would not have been a Declaration of Independence. I am now glad that there was.

As I said - contrary to popular belief - we do not celebrate the Revolutionary War or the victory on the 4th of July. We celebrate our Declaration of Independence. Victory came many many years later. If we were truly to celebrate the start of the true United States - it would be in September and the celebration of the Constitution. We celebrate independence though - everything came after - the war, victory, the forming of the new government, etc.

If you are interested in the beginnings of the US - here are some references...

Decision in Philadelphia: The Constitutional Convention of 1787
Miracle At Philadelphia: the Story of the Constitutional Convention May-Spt 1787
The Birth of the Republic, 1763-89 (The Chicago History of American Civilization) (haven't read)
Founding Fathers (2000)
Founding Brothers

Here is a selection of 18th Century American Documents.

[Lalaith]

I think for non-americans there is no need to celebrate their Independence Day, but we should accept that they have it, because certainly it is important to them and their liberty and independence.
Nothing against Brits, but I would say that some more colonies and states should become independent, because nowadays there is IMO no need for these strange relationships anymore.

[Falagar]

We tried without violence. At first Independence was NOT the goal.

Should have tried harder then

I think for non-americans there is no need to celebrate their Independence Day, but we should accept that they have it, because certainly it is important to them and their liberty and independence.
Nothing against Brits, but I would say that some more colonies and states should become independent, because nowadays there is IMO no need for these strange relationships anymore.

Agreed, provided that the inhabitans get a choice.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
Should have tried harder then

It was Britain who launched ships against us and was bringing the army over. They refused and basically escalated the war. I am VERY happy to be free from Britain. I used to not always feel that way - until I had actually gone to England. Before that I was very interested in England and felt we should not have fought the Revolution. After going to England - I changed my mind and began to study revolutionary America. I am very glad we are not like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc, etc, etc.

It is amazing what the Founding Fathers were able to accomplish. It is amazing that the United States did not fail.. A lot of the credit has to go to our first President George Washington. Any other person - would most likely have declared himself ruler after the war (like Lee) or not stepped down from the presidency. We beat the greatest power on earth at the time and gained our independence and built the greatest power on earth and we're only 217 years old now.

[Spock]

...."a tip of the hat to the jerseydevil"....and a most sincere thank you for presenting our case.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Spock
...."a tip of the hat to the jerseydevil"....and a most sincere thank you for presenting our case.

Thank you and glad to be of service.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
[B]It was Britain who launched ships against us and was bringing the army over. They refused and basically escalated the war. I am VERY happy to be free from Britain. I used to not always feel that way - until I had actually gone to England. Before that I was very interested in England and felt we should not have fought the Revolution. After going to England - I changed my mind and began to study revolutionary America. I am very glad we are not like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc, etc, etc./B]

Yes, I quite agree. For a ragged bunch of common, upstart colonials you have done a reasonable job of establishing a nation! (*joke*- I admit bad taste but I couldn't resist playing my George III)

You mention you were interested in England until you visited it. Why did your interest in English History etc cease then? You didn't like England?

As to George III being an idiotic King, no one doubts that that. But I cannot help but feel sorry for the old, insane king. He desperately tried to cling onto the vast colony that was the U.S., which he had inherited, and its loss drove him over the brink into insanity.

George, in my opinion, was never a 'tyrant' or an 'evil' man. Merely tragic in that he felt such a sense of loss at losing the U.S. 'Fresh virgin soil...endless fields...ours...mine...gone...all gone' was his famous quote.

Incidentally, though a tad off topic, jerseydevil, the Great American Patriot (!) what is your opinion on the 'Special Relationship'? Is our Prime Minister 'sucking up' or are they genuinely friends?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
....You mention you were interested in England until you visited it. Why did your interest in English History etc cease then? You didn't like England? ....

I can't speak for JD, but I've had experiences with meeting Brits that wasn't exactly positive. (Although I have a friend in another town who was Brittish and is now a US citizen and we get along great.)

I'll give you an example. I just got back from a week away from home for business. I meet this man who lives and works here in the US but is a Brittish citizen. I tell him the state that I'm from and he proceeds to tell me lame, rude jokes about people from the state I live in. *rolleyes* And he proceeds to rudely tell me all the things he hates about the US and how England is soooo much better in everything, and how idiotic our government is. So, I said, if it's so bad here, why not just go back to England then? And he had no comment. (What a loser.)

[Radagast]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I can't speak for JD, but I've had experiences with meeting Brits that wasn't exactly positive. (Although I have a friend in another town who was Brittish and is now a US citizen and we get along great.)

I'll give you an example. I just got back from a week away from home for business. I meet this man who lives and works here in the US but is a Brittish citizen. I tell him the state that I'm from and he proceeds to tell me lame, rude jokes about people from the state I live in. *rolleyes* And he proceeds to rudely tell me all the things he hates about the US and how England is soooo much better in everything, and how idiotic our government is. So, I said, if it's so bad here, why not just go back to England then? And he had no comment. (What a loser.)

But I could say the same thing about Americans I have met. Individuals are not reflections on an entire population. Oh and, not to nitpick, but nobody in the U.K. is a 'citizen' we are all subjects of HM the Queen.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
But I could say the same thing about Americans I have met. Individuals are not reflections on an entire population. Oh and, not to nitpick, but nobody in the U.K. is a 'citizen' we are all subjects of HM the Queen.

Subject, just sounds so archaic and... well, lowly. Citizen just seems ... well, prouder. sorry, no offense meant.

And you are right about individuals not representing a population. If you would be so kind as to send over here better representatives of your country, I'd be most obliged. Thank you.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Subject, just sounds so archaic and... well, lowly. Citizen just seems ... well, prouder. sorry, no offense meant.

And you are right about individuals not representing a population. If you would be so kind as to send over here better representatives of your country, I'd be most obliged. Thank you.

I'm airmailing myself as we speak.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
I'm airmailing myself as we speak.

Great! I'll set up the spare room.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
You mention you were interested in England until you visited it. Why did your interest in English History etc cease then? You didn't like England?

No - I actually still like England. I just got tired of being constantly referred to as the "colonies" and being looked down on while I was there and when British people my father worked with thinking that England was so much superior than the US. I just became very glad we broke off from britain - because then we would have TRULY been beneath them - and not just their wishful thinking. I am still very much interested in British History - just very glad we fought the Revolution and am no longer a part of the kingdom.

[jerseydevil]

Now onto the rest of your post.

Originally posted by Radagast
As to George III being an idiotic King, no one doubts that that. But I cannot help but feel sorry for the old, insane king. He desperately tried to cling onto the vast colony that was the U.S., which he had inherited, and its loss drove him over the brink into insanity.

George, in my opinion, was never a 'tyrant' or an 'evil' man. Merely tragic in that he felt such a sense of loss at losing the U.S. 'Fresh virgin soil...endless fields...ours...mine...gone...all gone' was his famous quote.

I agree. He was a tragic figure. Ruled by his mother - and Parliament. He tried doing everything to keep America and he was listening to the people who said the only way to keep the colonies was to make them realise who was boss and to put MORE pressure on us. This obviously was the wrong thing to do.

Incidentally, though a tad off topic, jerseydevil, the Great American Patriot (!) what is your opinion on the 'Special Relationship'? Is our Prime Minister 'sucking up' or are they genuinely friends?

They seem to genuinely be friends. But it's hard to say at this moment in time. Britain seems to care more about the WMD than we do here. I think Tony Blair is in a tight position - but as he said - Bush speaks his mind and is more open. With Clinton you had to figure out what the definition of is" is and figure out if he was going to twist what he was saying.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
But I could say the same thing about Americans I have met. Individuals are not reflections on an entire population. Oh and, not to nitpick, but nobody in the U.K. is a 'citizen' we are all subjects of HM the Queen.

I agree with that. I just met a lot of people who kept calling America - "the colonies" in a condescending tone.

Also - I agree with Ruinel on the "subject" vs "citizen" thing. Subject sounds like serfs - one step above slaves. Citizens have an ownership in the country. The president is NOT above the common people. That is why we had the impeachment hearing on Clinton. He had been elected and taken an oath to uphold the Constitution - he was telling people to lie under oath. If people read the Constitution they will find that under Article II Section IV it says...

Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

[Sween]

Want to know what me and George washington have in common. His mom and i hail from the same town. That is Whitehaven in cumbria my birthplace and his mother i do believe (not sure if she was born there but she lived there for a long time)! That probably the most inbtresting peice of local history ive ever heard anyone that intrested in slavery should look up whitehaven it used to be the second biggest port after london till then dirty scousers pointed out that they were not a tidal port