Wheel of Time discussions

Beren3000 · 05-29-2004, 05:50 PM

People talk a lot about the reduced readability of the latest books (I'm on the 4th book myself and personally find that the series lost nothing of its shine or "momentum" so far); however, I started this thread for discussions about possible literary meanings or symbols you find in the series.
Anybody got posts?

Falagar · 06-01-2004, 07:42 PM

Sorry, not much on-topic, but a good joke ! Found it on some message-board:

In how many ways can Robert Jordan describe the problems of dealing with women?

Think well before you check the answer.

Three: Rand can wish he was Perrin or Mat, because Perrin and Mat know how to act around girls, Perrin can wish he was Mat or Rand, because they always know what to say, or Mat could wish he was Perrin or Rand because they always get along with girls...

Sorry, didn't really mean to drag this thread off-topic. But to be blunt, I don't think there are any deeper meanings or literary messages - at least I've not discovered any between all the braid-tugging and sniffing. Jordan doesn't seem to have grasped the idea of subtility (just spent two hours going through a Jordan-basher thread and it's two o' clock in the morning, may have something to do with it).

Elvengirl · 06-01-2004, 07:52 PM

lol too true

Beren3000 · 06-02-2004, 02:11 PM

LOOOOOL great joke, man!
Don't worry about talking off-topic. I didn't find a lot of "deeper meanings" myself. I started the thread to see if other people could see what I couldn't. However, I can think of some stuff. Obviously, Rand is a Christ figure. I also think that the Aes Sedai represent the church or something. This way, the people's attitude toward them is explained: an attitude of fear but respect in some, hatred in others etc...as opposed to the old, reverent attitude (people used to respect church more). However, this doesn't make much sense as Rand appears in a time when Aes Sedai have long existed, whereas Christ founded the church.

Any help here?

Falagar · 06-02-2004, 02:20 PM

Mat and Perrin (and Rand, though IMO to a smaller degree) represent the careless, ignorant youth, and during their travels they grow more responisble and learn their ways up in the world. (At least they're supposed to, though it seems like they stop growing somewhere along the way and despite all that's happening to them just remain ignorant.)

Moiraine is a bit Christ-like; she tries to guide Rand (=humanity), sometimes succeeding and sometimes not, until she sacrifices herself in the end to save him (them) because of his (their) own shortcomings.

Not particulary insightful but that's all I got time for now, got to run...

Lollypopgurl · 06-24-2004, 09:24 PM

Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing.

The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9.

Lenya · 10-23-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lollypopgurl

Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing.

The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9.

The series deffinately slows down, but it gets better again - book 9 was totally my favourite. Unfortunately book 10 wasn't that good.

***Tessar*** · 11-28-2004, 01:04 AM

Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1

That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.

Lief Erikson · 11-28-2004, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessar

Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1

That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.

I utterly agree

. Of course, I haven't reread any of the books. That's one part which I did reread, though. I hardly ever reread, but that scene of that book I've reread at least twice. I agree with you completely, a brilliantly created construct on Robert Jordan's part. Robert Jordan is great with at the descriptions of all his action sequences, and that one is around the top. I probably would say flat out at the top, only I haven't read any of the other books in ages, so I hardly remember their fight scenes well enough to compare. I definitely love that one around the top, though

.

Lenya · 12-05-2004, 08:40 AM

That was a stunning part, but my fav was where they fixed the weather. That whole chapter was stunning!

Beren3000 · 07-19-2004, 05:33 PM

Mods, can you please close this?

***Tessar*** · 07-21-2004, 01:46 PM

Actually, on the subject of Rand being a Christ Figure:

Jesus didn't fully 'found' the Church, in a sense. There were already 'priests' of a sort, although getting very corrupt. Jesus changed the church and gave it a new foundation (read: the Black Tower).

I would say that Rand as a Christ figure works out nicely

.

Beren3000 · 07-22-2004, 05:00 AM

Thanks for reviving the thread, Tessar. But I beg to differ on one point. What existed before Christ was Judaism, not a church in the strict sense of the word. But your explanation is probably right if we modify it to say that Aes Sedai symbolize Judaist priests and Pharisees. But the problem is, that doesn't seem to make much sense either as the priests and Pharisees were dead set on opposing Christ (the only one who believed in Him that we know of is Nicodemus). I think then that Rand should be taken as a Christ figure, period. If you start thinking about his relation to other characters, the symbolism doesn't hold water.
But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

***Tessar*** · 07-22-2004, 12:35 PM

The priests ended up trying to use Christ to glorify their own way.

The White Tower tried to CAPTURE Rand and force him into submission so that he would be under their controll.

It's fairly close, actually

.

brownjenkins · 07-22-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

RJ doesn't hit me as someone who really thinks that much about the big picture... he was using themes from religion, sure... but those themes themselves have older mythological roots... so unless RJ came right out and said, this is a christian allegory, i wouldn't think any was intended

Beren3000 · 07-22-2004, 06:03 PM

I see what you mean, brownjenkins. Many times I felt that there is no depth to the books and that they were inteded just as a fantasy story to fascinate fans and entertain readers but nothing more...

b.banner · 01-07-2008, 10:49 PM

a new author will finish "A Memory Of Light" Brandon Sanderson, don't worry he is Harriet approved.

http://www.tor-forge.com/NewsArticle.aspx?articleId=647
an interview
http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Mem...terview_01.php

Curubethion · 01-08-2008, 03:37 AM

Yes, I am rather interested to see where this goes. I hear he's gonna be very dedicated in his working.

brownjenkins · 01-08-2008, 09:04 PM

I wonder if it is still going to be around 2000 pages.

b.banner · 01-15-2008, 02:51 AM

i hope it will be i want nice long book o read!

05-29-2004, 05:50 PM	#1
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Wheel of Time discussions People talk a lot about the reduced readability of the latest books (I'm on the 4th book myself and personally find that the series lost nothing of its shine or "momentum" so far); however, I started this thread for discussions about possible literary meanings or symbols you find in the series. Anybody got posts?

06-01-2004, 07:52 PM	#3
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	lol too true __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com

06-02-2004, 02:20 PM	#5
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Mat and Perrin (and Rand, though IMO to a smaller degree) represent the careless, ignorant youth, and during their travels they grow more responisble and learn their ways up in the world. (At least they're supposed to, though it seems like they stop growing somewhere along the way and despite all that's happening to them just remain ignorant.) Moiraine is a bit Christ-like; she tries to guide Rand (=humanity), sometimes succeeding and sometimes not, until she sacrifices herself in the end to save him (them) because of his (their) own shortcomings. Not particulary insightful but that's all I got time for now, got to run... __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 06-02-2004 at 02:24 PM.

06-24-2004, 09:24 PM	#6
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing. The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9. __________________ a violinist...

01-07-2008, 10:49 PM	#17
b.banner Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Trying to keep a hold on my temper so I don't turn into a big green guy. Posts: 572	a new author will finish "A Memory Of Light" Brandon Sanderson, don't worry he is Harriet approved. http://www.tor-forge.com/NewsArticle.aspx?articleId=647 an interview http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Mem...terview_01.php __________________ "We are going to tickle some Aes Sedai under the chin, rescue a mule, and put a snip-nosed girl on the Lion Throne. Oh, yes. That's Aviendha. Don't look at her cross-wise or she'll try to cut your throat and probably slit her own by mistake."-Mat Cauthon from Wheel of Time "Don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...."-Dr. Bruce Banner HULK BATMAN THE FLASH

06-02-2004, 02:11 PM	#4
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	LOOOOOL great joke, man! Don't worry about talking off-topic. I didn't find a lot of "deeper meanings" myself. I started the thread to see if other people could see what I couldn't. However, I can think of some stuff. Obviously, Rand is a Christ figure. I also think that the Aes Sedai represent the church or something. This way, the people's attitude toward them is explained: an attitude of fear but respect in some, hatred in others etc...as opposed to the old, reverent attitude (people used to respect church more). However, this doesn't make much sense as Rand appears in a time when Aes Sedai have long existed, whereas Christ founded the church. Any help here?

11-28-2004, 01:04 AM	#8
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1 That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.

12-05-2004, 08:40 AM	#10
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	That was a stunning part, but my fav was where they fixed the weather. That whole chapter was stunning!

07-19-2004, 05:33 PM	#11
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Mods, can you please close this?

07-21-2004, 01:46 PM	#12
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Actually, on the subject of Rand being a Christ Figure: Jesus didn't fully 'found' the Church, in a sense. There were already 'priests' of a sort, although getting very corrupt. Jesus changed the church and gave it a new foundation (read: the Black Tower). I would say that Rand as a Christ figure works out nicely .

07-22-2004, 05:00 AM	#13
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Thanks for reviving the thread, Tessar. But I beg to differ on one point. What existed before Christ was Judaism, not a church in the strict sense of the word. But your explanation is probably right if we modify it to say that Aes Sedai symbolize Judaist priests and Pharisees. But the problem is, that doesn't seem to make much sense either as the priests and Pharisees were dead set on opposing Christ (the only one who believed in Him that we know of is Nicodemus). I think then that Rand should be taken as a Christ figure, period. If you start thinking about his relation to other characters, the symbolism doesn't hold water. But maybe RJ never intended his work to be Christian allegory? Maybe he didn't intend it to be symbolic at all? What do you think?

07-22-2004, 12:35 PM	#14
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	The priests ended up trying to use Christ to glorify their own way. The White Tower tried to CAPTURE Rand and force him into submission so that he would be under their controll. It's fairly close, actually .

07-22-2004, 06:03 PM	#16
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	I see what you mean, brownjenkins. Many times I felt that there is no depth to the books and that they were inteded just as a fantasy story to fascinate fans and entertain readers but nothing more...

01-08-2008, 03:37 AM	#18
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	Yes, I am rather interested to see where this goes. I hear he's gonna be very dedicated in his working. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

01-08-2008, 09:04 PM	#19
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	I wonder if it is still going to be around 2000 pages. __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

01-15-2008, 02:51 AM	#20
b.banner Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Trying to keep a hold on my temper so I don't turn into a big green guy. Posts: 572	i hope it will be i want nice long book o read! __________________ "We are going to tickle some Aes Sedai under the chin, rescue a mule, and put a snip-nosed girl on the Lion Throne. Oh, yes. That's Aviendha. Don't look at her cross-wise or she'll try to cut your throat and probably slit her own by mistake."-Mat Cauthon from Wheel of Time "Don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...."-Dr. Bruce Banner HULK BATMAN THE FLASH

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