LotR Discussion Project: The Two Towers--Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider

[mithrand1r]

Book III
Chapter V
The White Rider

This chapter, IMHO, starts off as one of the low points for the remaining members of the Fellowship of the Ring.

The Fellowship is scattered in several areas.

• Gandalf fell into the abyss in Moria.
• Boromir fell to orc arrows near Parth Galen.
• Sam and Frodo departed for Mordor in hopes of destroying the one ring.
• Merry and Pippin have been captured by Orcs and have been carried north towards Isengard.
• Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are continuing the search for Merry and Pippin, even though there does not appear to be much hope of finding them, dead or alive.

Summary

After four days of pursuit, they (Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) are making a last effort search for Merry and Pippin starting from their camp near the battle site of the orcs and Rohan riders. The general plan for the day's events was stated by Aragorn:

We should begin here, near to our own camping-ground, searching carefully all about, and working up the slope towards the forest. To find the hobbits is our errand, whatever we may think of our visitor in the night. If they [the hobbits] escaped by some chance, then they must have hidden in the trees, or they would have been seen. If we find nothing between here and the eaves of the wood, then we will make a last search upon the battle-field and among the ashes. But there is little hope there: the horsemen of Rohan did their work too well.

For some time the companions looked for signs of the hobbits. Finally, their persistence is rewarded. They find clues of a hobbit. They are able to piece together parts of the riddle of how the hobbits escaped and conclude that at least one of the hobbits must have fled into Fangorn forest. They decide to enter Fangorn forest in pursuit of their friends.

After some time in the forest, the companions see definite signs of Merry and Pippin by the water bank. Feeling encouraged, they follow the signs of the hobbits further into the forest. During their search, Legolas spots an old man. Immediately the companions are cautious and draw their weapons. Gimli encourages Legolas to draw his arrow, as the old man (whom the group thinks may be Saruman) approaches.

They hold their fire, since as Aragorn states: “We may not shoot an old man so, unawares and unchallenged, whatever fear or doubt be on us. Watch and wait!”. After some tense moments and brief dialog, they recognize the old man as Gandalf. Gandalf is different than how they remember him when they last saw him in Moria.

They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they stood and found no words to say.

They exchange information. Gandalf learns of what happened to the fellowship after Moria. Gandalf tells them a little of what happened after his fall in Moria and relays messages from Galadriel to each remaining member of the fellowship. They learn that Merry and Pippin are with Treebeard and the Ents of Fangorn. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli want to go see Merry and Pippin, but Gandalf says that they need to ride to Meduseld with haste. Gandalf whistles. His horse Shadowfax arrives with the horses that Aragorn and Legolas borrowed from Eomer. They mount up and ride to Meduseld.


Although not much action happens in this chapter, there are several questions that come to the reader's attention

Questions to consider:

1. Before they enter Fangorn, Legolas can sense that the lack of evil in the wood, the sense of watchfullness and anger in the wood and the tenseness in the wood. Gimli thinks the wood is lighter than Mirkwood, but it is musty and shabby.
   Is it a special gift of elves and dwarfs to somehow (for lack of a better word) discern the state of mind of the forest ?
   
2. When Gandalf approaches the group in this chapter, he does not seem to be the same as when the fellowship saw him in Moria. He seems a liitle disoriented (ie. does not remember his name and other details that, one would think, should be easy to remember).
   Why is Gandalf in this state of mind ?
   
3. Gandalf states that Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli do not have any weapons that could hurt him.
   What does this imply and/or mean about the true nature of Gandalf ?
   
4. Gandalf is, as Gimli states, all in white. Gandalf states:
   

   'Yes, I am white now, indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.'

   What does he mean and why is Gandalf now dressed in white ?
   
5. Gandalf states: I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off, but many things that are close at hand I cannot see.
   What does Gandalf mean with this statement ?
   
6. Gandalf says he looked into Saruman's mind and saw Saruman's doubt.
   Is Gandalf able to look into everyone's mind?
   If yes, why has he not looked into other people's minds.
   Can he look into other people's mind without their knowledge ?
   
7. Gandalf states: I was heavy with thought, and weary after my struggle with the Eye of Mordor;
   What kind of struggle did Gandalf have and how did he engage in this struggle ?
   
   
8. During his description of his battle with the Balrog, Gandalf states:
   

   Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
   Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done.

   Where did Gandalf go and what exactly happened to him ?
   
9. Do you think that Galadriel's messages to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli came from her access to the Mirror of Galadriel to see what may be ?
   

10. Hope is not victory. War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory.

    Yet in the council of Elrond it was said that they cannot use the Ruling Ring.
    Is this an indication that Gandalf was tempted to use the ring ?
    
    

11. 'I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still'

    Gandalf acknowledges that there are forces that are stronger than he. Is there any special significance to this admission ?

Related threads:

Gandalf the White

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Gandalf acknowledges that there are forces that are stronger than he. Is there any special significance to this admission ?

I only think that this is Gandalf's way of tempering the enthusiasm of his friends regarding his return to them. Just a way to keep them focused on the fact that there is plenty of work to do and that they still face strong opposition AKA Sauron) with little hope of winning.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

[*]
Yet in the council of Elrond it was said that they cannot use the Ruling Ring.
Is this an indication that Gandalf was tempted to use the ring ?

[*]

Gandalf the White

If I mayadress this...GGandalf states that Victory can only be assured by using the ring...while this was nowhere rescinded by anyone. What was said at the council was that anyone attempting to use use the ring may have victory or gain great power, they would become corrupted.

[Beren3000]

Well done mithrand1r! Interesting questions. Here are my two cents:

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

What does he mean and why is Gandalf now dressed in white ?

I think he means that what he has become now, is how Saruman should have been: the strongest of the Istari, yet wise and steadfast. His wearing white, beside the obvious symbolism associated with that colour, is (IMO) an added emphasis on this point: he has now come to take Saruman's place.

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Is Gandalf able to look into everyone's mind?

I would say no, he can't. I think this statement can be explained in several ways:
- Gandalf and Saruman being of the same "order" (i.e. Maiar) could perceive each other's thoughts. That, however, seems unlikely because it implies that Gandalf can see the mind of Sauron as well.
- Reading minds is the one of the things that Gandalf "remembered" and was (as most of his powers) limited to certain people.
-It's a new ability that he gained after he became "the White".

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Where did Gandalf go and what exactly happened to him ?

I have always taken that statement to mean that his soul returned to Valinor where he was given a new body and allowed to go back to ME until his work there is done. The "out of thought and time" thing, is (IMO) about Valinor's being "hidden", i.e. it's not in the physical world anymore, it's beyond it and therefore can't be described in terms of time and space, etc...

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Is this an indication that Gandalf was tempted to use the ring ?

I agree with FF. He's saying that we can't be sure of victory unless we use the Ring: Frodo and Sam's mission is only "a fool's hope" as it were.

[Artanis]

Very good intro mithrandir!

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Is it a special gift of elves and dwarfs to somehow (for lack of a better word) discern the state of mind of the forest ?

I think it is a special gift of Elves to sense the 'state of mind' of everything in the world. There are many examples of this being hinted to in the books. Legolas is aware of the mode of Fangorn, he is also aware of the very stones and rocks in Eregion lamenting their past dwellers. He can hear Nimrodel's voice in the waterfall in Lórien. I do not think that Dwarves have the same gift. Dwarves are more concerned with the physical structure of the world, especially with mountains and minerals.

Why is Gandalf in this state of mind ?

Because he is re-born in human form and have to learn much anew. He has forgotten many things that he knew in his former life, simple things such as his name in Middle-Earth.

'Gandalf,' the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.

What does this imply and/or mean about the true nature of Gandalf ?

I don't think it implies anything about his nature - it does however imply much about his new power. Gandalf's nature was no different from Saruman's, and yet the latter was 'killed' by Wormtongue's knife.

Do you think that Galadriel's messages to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli came from her access to the Mirror of Galadriel to see what may be ?

No, I do not think she had any need to look in the mirror for these messages. It was her wisdom that enabled her to send those messages. To summon the Grey Company was a very sensible thing to do, now that Frodo had gone off with the Ring and Aragorn needed all the help he could get. As for the message to Legolas, she was well aware of the sea-longing that slumbered deep in the hearts of all Telerin Elves. She knew that Legolas would be stricken with a desire for the sea if he once experienced it.

Hope to reply more later ...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

nice intro, i dont know how much of this i will be able to answer - i am not very good at analytical questions (ask my history lecturer - D for Coursework ) but i will try later

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

nice intro, i dont know how much of this i will be able to answer - i am not very good at analytical questions (ask my history lecturer - D for Coursework ) but i will try later

Part of the reason I have not answered most of the questions I wrote. I am not sure what the answer is, but they were some questions that came to my mind when reading this chapter.

Gandalf also made several things/events clearer for the reader when he made his mind plainer to Aragorn.

• What the Enemy knows and what he would do if he were part of the FOTR
• That the Enemy does not perceive the purpose of the FOTR clearly
• The Enemy will strike (make war) very soon hoping for a quick victory
• Saruman is a double traitor (to the free people and to Sauron)
• The winged messanger is a nazgûl's steed
• Saruman will attack Rohan soon
• Saruman is unaware of the danger that Treebeard and the Ents are to his plans.

[Butterbeer]

well, i don't know how much "action" happens in this chapter but in some ways its one of the most important (i'm not going to try an qualify that!!) chapters - essentialy (do you agree?) its the real turning of the tide: it reveals so much (and asks so many questions) about gandalf / Mithrandir (etc) and the order of wizards: do we agree that in purley mortal (M/earth) terms gandalf died despite defeateting the Balrog of Morgoth, but due to his (in parrallel with both Bilbo and frodo's pity and mercy heart / soul dealings with the ring) true dealings with his cause in Midlle earth he was (as it were - promoted) and sent back until his task was achieved (or not?). He went out of time and space in a duality (between M/earth mortality and being Istari (is that right? I'm going to bed in a min as i'm about as coherrent as a rabbit!) therefore was as it were caught in time, but sent back he was almost in some ways a different person, not at heart or core, but in terms of the spirit: he could see things afar or across time but things (more mortal humdrum specialism) close to hand were almost blind to him (eg the name Gandalf) although once he remembers the name mithrandir appears to quickly catch backup.

er hope that makes any sense?? - im off to bed, night all, butterbeer

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well, i don't know how much "action" happens in this chapter but in some ways its one of the most important (i'm not going to try an qualify that!!) chapters - essentialy (do you agree?)

its the real turning of the tide:

it reveals so much (and asks so many questions) about gandalf / Mithrandir (etc) and the order of wizards:

do we agree that in purley mortal (M/earth) terms gandalf died despite defeateting the Balrog of Morgoth, but due to his (in parrallel with both Bilbo and frodo's pity and mercy heart / soul dealings with the ring) true dealings with his cause in Midlle earth he was (as it were - promoted) and sent back until his task was achieved (or not?).

He went out of time and space in a duality (between M/earth mortality and being Istari (is that right? I'm going to bed in a min as i'm about as coherrent as a rabbit!)

therefore was as it were caught in time, but sent back he was almost in some ways a different person, not at heart or core, but in terms of the spirit: he could see things afar or across time but things (more mortal humdrum specialism) close to hand were almost blind to him (eg the name Gandalf) although once he remembers the name mithrandir appears to quickly catch backup.

er hope that makes any sense?? - im off to bed, night all, butterbeer

I agree that this chapter is a "turning of the tide" or a "watershed mark" in LOTR. Events in general, upto this point have not been going as planned. The return of Gandalf has the effect of (to use a chess analogy) gaining a queen. Both in terms of Gandalf lifting everyone's mood, but also from the authority and power that Gandalf possesses and brings to the table.

From reading the chapter, I do get a sense that Gandalf's physical body did die and he was returned by the powers that be (probably because his labors were not complete).

[Butterbeer]

despite the long flowing robes, i never quite saw Gandalf as a queen (?)
- otherwise i think its a very good analogy! I suppose to be lighthearted about it then the Ring itself is the King (i think its too slow and vulnerable to be Aragorn) - the Knights seem obvious and for me the Two towers have to be Gimli (well one of them).

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

[*]When Gandalf approaches the group in this chapter, he does not seem to be the same as when the fellowship saw him in Moria. He seems a liitle disoriented (ie. does not remember his name and other details that, one would think, should be easy to remember).
Why is Gandalf in this state of mind ?

I think that while Gandalf was bejond space and time he regained some perspectives on the plan of Iluvatar, many of the unimportant details he had learnt in body-life he forgot. His name is one of these unimportant details, as symbol that all what he had done as Gandalf the gray was a minuscule detail, trivial, in the plan of Iluvatar.

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

[*]Gandalf states that Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli do not have any weapons that could hurt him.
What does this imply and/or mean about the true nature of Gandalf ?

That is a good question. Mortals/Elves cannot hurt mayars, but I think they are usually able to hurt their body. So perhaps Gandaf the white is bragging a bit too much?

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

[*]Gandalf states: I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off, but many things that are close at hand I cannot see.
What does Gandalf mean with this statement ?

I have addressed much of this question above. I think he can now see (again) a lot of the far off plan of Iluvatar (e.g. that Sauron will fall someday), but can't see all the details of how that is going to pass (e.g. whether Sauron will fall now becuase of Frodo, or after an age of dark reign)

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

[*]Gandalf says he looked into Saruman's mind and saw Saruman's doubt.
Is Gandalf able to look into everyone's mind?
If yes, why has he not looked into other people's minds.
Can he look into other people's mind without their knowledge ?

I don't think that Gandalf can read Saruman's mind, or anobody else's mind. I think he can perceive something that has to do with the state of mind of Saruman and everybody else. I think he now has a sense which is stronger than what a good psychologist would have

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

[*]
Yet in the council of Elrond it was said that they cannot use the Ruling Ring.
Is this an indication that Gandalf was tempted to use the ring ?

I think this is a tiny slippage in writing. I think it is meant to say "destroy"

[Butterbeer]

That is a good question. Mortals/Elves cannot hurt mayars, but I think they are usually able to hurt their body. So perhaps Gandaf the white is bragging a bit too much?

well i think you've almost already answered this in your previous answer: IMHO gandalf is still in this sense thinking of the larger picture of Iluvatar (as you say recently refreshed) rather than worrying about his mortal body in ME.
...

Kinda bit of me somewhere agrees bit 'bout the brag though - but hey! he's back! he's fresh!, he's alive! and he's powerful back now with his friends (who met in the nick of time else who might not have)at the turn of the tide!
Fair play Gandalf! After all you come back from death and days as long as eons (wow think about it!), even the best of swords made in the deeps of time etc are not going to really bother you too much are they (when its your friends who you know and trust that 'ave em - (delia does middle earth!)

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

What does this imply and/or mean about the true nature of Gandalf ?

I think Gandalf meant that literally. The fact that mortals could harm Maiar's bodies is (IMO) irrelevant: mortals hurt Sauron because he had put so much of his power into the Ring. I don't think they could've hurt his body otherwise. Same thing goes for Morgoth (who is actually a Vala!): he was hurt by Fingolfin, etc... because his powers weakened in ME. I don't think that any mortal could have harmed Manwë's body, do you?

[Serenoli]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Gandalf states: I was heavy with thought, and weary after my struggle with the Eye of Mordor;
What kind of struggle did Gandalf have and how did he engage in this struggle ?

When Frodo put the Ring on in Parth Galen, there were two opposing powers striving against each other: one which was clearly Sauron (the Red Eye), and the other urged Frodo to take the Ring off... I think that was Gandalf, and he fought with Sauron, mentally, so that Sauron could not percieve Frodo, and that is the struggle he is talking about.

Originally Posted by Gandalf

Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and walked long in deep thought.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

[*]Before they enter Fangorn, Legolas can sense that the lack of evil in the wood, the sense of watchfullness and anger in the wood and the tenseness in the wood. Gimli thinks the wood is lighter than Mirkwood, but it is musty and shabby.
Is it a special gift of elves and dwarfs to somehow (for lack of a better word) discern the state of mind of the forest ?

Wood-Elves like Legolas would no doubt be able to discern aspects of forests that Men cannot. I'm not so sure about Dwarves having the same skill. I think Gimli is comparing Entwood to Mirkwood on a mere visual basis.

Gandalf states that Aragorn, Legolas, & Gimli do not have any weapons that could hurt him.
What does this imply and/or mean about the true nature of Gandalf ?

I reckon he can't be bothered with dying at the moment anymore, because he still has his job to finish.

Or maybe he was still feeling the head-rush from his upgrade from Grey to White. The "I'm invincible!" premise.

Is Gandalf able to look into everyone's mind?
If yes, why has he not looked into other people's minds.
Can he look into other people's mind without their knowledge ?

I don't think Gandalf can read thoughts. But I don't think it is necesary either. Sometimes actions or body language expresses one's intentions more clearly than thoughts can. One doesn't have to be able to read minds to learn a great deal of how people think.

I don't remember this chapter too fondly. My sis managed to spoil a lot of it by spilling earlier that Gandalf wasn't dead yet after Moria and that he would return.

(Yes, yes, I'm late in entering this discussion. I've got over a book to catch up in the discussion. Better late than never, as Éomer will say in a few chapters. )