Blatant LoTR Copy-Cats

[Elemmírë]

Lennuvanyë mai lennuvalyë,
Nai elmë hiruvas.

I will go if you will go,
Perhaps we will find it.

I'm ready when you are, Pytt.
See... I'm even practising my Quenya...
Though... I doubt it's actually understandable at this point...

[ItalianLegolas]

his world is definitly more convincing then others, and better too

[Khamûl]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Isn't that a bastardisation of "all we did, we did for her"?

Actually, I believe it's "All we owe, we owe her" which comes out sounding like "oh-we-oh oh-wee-oh". I don't remember where I heard that, but I think it's right.

And The Sword of Shannara is the most blatant rip-off of Tolkien I've ever read. It's also the only book by Terry Brooks I've ever read. Just for fun, the Book-A-Minute version of The Sword of Shannara, ultra-condensed by Samuel Stoddard and David J. Parker:

Allanon -- Shea Ohmsford, you're the long lost heir to a royal magic throne kingship dynasty bloodline. Also, the world will die unless you can save it.

Shea Ohmsford -- What do I do?

Allanon -- I'm not telling.

Shea Ohmsford -- Oh, Allanon! You're so reticent!

(Then a plot happens.)

The Warlock Lord -- ROAR. I WILL KILL YOU.

Shea Ohmsford -- Truth.

The Warlock Lord -- GASP. (dies)


THE END

[Elvengirl]

but that plot is sooo cool Terry Brooks did have some origional concepts even if some of the basic story lines are the same or similar.

If you think The Sword is the most blatant rip off, read the Iron Tower Trilogy by Dennis McKiernan,then see if your opinion still stands.

[Beor]

I am just going to jump into this serious discussion to throw it off a little bit, but I think that Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker is alot like Feanor, not that he is a copycat. Thing is that that particular charactor is quite common in many many stories, and has been for a long time. same with many themes and whatnot. The Lord of the Rings is about a quest, so is a lot of other stories. I try to write some fantasy too, and it is really hard to get a fresh idea out of anything for me with such a monster-sized behemoth of a story pulsing through my brain. I end up calling the ultimate bad-guy Melkor and saying I will change it later, it is just easier that way. My Humanities teacher in School said that nothing is really new, it is just a different version of something else made before, whether on purpose, or by accident. I think that he was for the most part correct (though I still think that new stuff can come out, and I am going to do it dammit!).

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Lennuvanyë mai lennuvalyë,
Nai elmë hiruvas.

I will go if you will go,
Perhaps we will find it.

I'm ready when you are, Pytt.
See... I'm even practising my Quenya...
Though... I doubt it's actually understandable at this point...

Good, we might need a interpreter if, WHEN, we find it and I can nothing, so it all depends on you

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Beor

I try to write some fantasy too, and it is really hard to get a fresh idea out of anything for me with such a monster-sized behemoth of a story pulsing through my brain. I end up calling the ultimate bad-guy Melkor and saying I will change it later, it is just easier that way.

Haha!

I know what you mean though... whatever you do, your copying Tolkien. Use Elves and beware... never mind that they're in Scandinavian mythology too...

Originally Posted by Beor

My Humanities teacher in School said that nothing is really new, it is just a different version of something else made before, whether on purpose, or by accident. I think that he was for the most part correct (though I still think that new stuff can come out, and I am going to do it dammit!).

Hm. I think that holds some merit, though... if nothing is really new but based on something else... what was the first one based on...?

Originally Posted by Pytt

Good, we might need a interpreter if, WHEN, we find it and I can nothing, so it all depends on you

Nothing's new. It's WHEN, Pytt, WHEN.

[Beor]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Hm. I think that holds some merit, though... if nothing is really new but based on something else... what was the first one based on...?

Real, straitforward everyday life. Why, just the other day, there was a Balrog named Phil at the Wal-Mart uptown, and he was trying to buy some of those festive Santa-shaped hotpads for cookware, and he couldnt find them, so he asked a helpful customer service representative, and she said they were out, so he started whipping everyone in the store. So my wife says to me, she says, "Bill, you ought to do something about that guy," and I said to her, "no, honey, it will take care of itself." Thats when some dude came from nowhere and "smote" ol Phil with a magical frying pan made of mythril engraved with some archaic form of Quenyan, and they fought for thirty-three days right there in Wal-Mart (which, of course, is open for 24 hours a day to make shopping more convienent).

[Elemmírë]

LOL!

My god, that reminds me of some of the weird AIM conversations I have with my neighbour... where we start talking about Melvin the Orc and his brothers and how they're going to start a boy band... A sure sign of college kids with too much time on their hands and no real desire to study...

[Beor]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

LOL!

My god, that reminds me of some of the weird AIM conversations I have with my neighbour... where we start talking about Melvin the Orc and his brothers and how they're going to start a boy band... A sure sign of college kids with too much time on their hands and no real desire to study...

See?! Exactly as I said! I know Melvin, but I dont think his band is going to go far. They need a hook, ya know?

[Lefty Scaevola]

You should try READING the Wizard of Oz and the other OZ books by Baum (something like 7 of them, other authors wrote another 20 or so) They are multi layered, with my favorite part being the the extremly sharp statire of societies. The scene in the Marvolous land of Oz, with Jellica Jamb actining as translator between the Scarecrow (then king of the Emerald City) and Kip & Jack Pumpkin Head on the other hand (a satire of diplomacy) still cracks me up just thinking about it.

[Elemmírë]

*sniff*

Now why would I ever read something that is so obviously a LotR copycat?

j/k of course.

Actually, I read the first one... I think. Actually... I don't believe I ever finished it... I must do that sometime!

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

That is grossly unfair to Tolkien's precedents. He in no way pulled his work out of thin air. His work was built upon EXISTING stepping stones. Granted, his STYLE of fantasy has had huge implications for the fantasy genre today, but the genre in and of itself ALREADY existed.

More debate on my opinion than I expected. I would have responded earlier but the thread dissapeared was moved to this forum, which I never visit.

I know, definately, that fantasy authors came before Tolkien, and quite obviously he himself was inspired by mythologies and religion and such. By saying he created the fantasy genre, I was refering to what you called the "modern" style of it. He was certainly instrumental in this, and the most widely (and rightfully, IMO) glorified for this. I used the word "created" because it makes him sound godly.
In saying he perfected it and made it so deep and detailed, I meant LotR and Middle Earth specifically. I think his work is unrivaled in awesomeness and depth. (and as Em notied, that's my opinion on a piece of art. Someone somewhere probably thinks otherwise, but this is Entmoot! )
And I see Tolkien "setting all the guidelines for" the genre simply by being the precedent in these respects. He's a model for all later authors (besides Beor, I guess ), and that's my point: people rarely copy Tolkien, but it's impossible to be completely dissimilar to him when he's so instrumental in fantasy.

I'm making a weak case. If I sound wimpy here look for my other posts on this opinion; collectively I must have explained myself. I can ramble on and on about how awesome he is to me and why, and how he's similar to God, so I have a hard time condensing that into a post. An essay, maybe.

[BeardofPants]

Sorry Bomb, but it ain't washing. The notion that Tolkien crafted and guided the fantasy genre... eh? Whatever! I still stand by the fact that there are clear precedents. Fantasy is what it is (and I assume you're talking mainstream fantasy as modelled after the style of tolkien, and not ALL fantasy?), because it has been built on a wealth of influences pre-dating Tolkien.

[Wayfarer]

BoP is correct.

There are those sad souls who see how great a writer Tolkien was and try to copy his works and his technique. But those aren't the good authors. The good authors emulate the process he used when writing, which is to borrow from the great stories of the past.

No, don't say that Tolkien created the fantasy genre. Say instead that he revived it. During the time in which Tolkien wrote, fantasy had been slowly dying off and had dissapeared in favor of pulp fiction/adventure/scifi. JRR Tolkien, by writing and managing to publish (remember that LOTR almost didn't make it to the presses) a grand, epic fantasy of the oldest tradition, he showed that fantasy was still a viable form of literature - and inspired others to do the same as he did.

Honestly, when you've read as much as I have you begin to sense the patterns that emerge in in literature and in human experience as a whole. Nothing is created in a vacuum, as I think Tolkien himself was well aware when he called Fantasy an act of Sub-Creation (That is, a subordinate Art possible within the confines of real Creation). As indeed he man himself said, the ultimate goal of all Fantasy is that it should be true, that it "may be a far-off gleam or echo" of Primary Truth.

[Attalus]

Good post, Wayfarer. Tolkien would have been the first to say that he had many, many influences on his tale. I suspect that he would have been proud of being influenced by Beowulf , the Eddas and the rest rather than the reverse.

[ItalianLegolas]

didn't he actually re-write Beowulf? or maybe i'm making that up

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

didn't he actually re-write Beowulf? or maybe i'm making that up

He did a translation of Beowulf, that we sadly enough, may never get to read. But that topic has its own thread, if I recall correctly, somewhere....

[Nurvingiel]

I also agree with Wayfarer... people are agreeing with him all over the board! What's the Moot coming to?

But really, I don't think there are any blatant LOTR copy cats. Terry Brooks is a great author, but he did accidentally mirror LOTR in "The Sword of Shannarah". I don't think he did it on purpose. Also, his later books have their own unique style (and a high body count ).

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Honestly, when you've read as much as I have you begin to sense the patterns that emerge in in literature and in human experience as a whole. Nothing is created in a vacuum,.

Meaning no fiction can possibly be wholly original or without strong influences of past works? I'd agree with that... I can't think of a case that's otherwise, really.