Women of LOTR

[Fool_of_a_Took]

With the Lord of the Rings being such a male- character heavy series, the women often get lost in the shuffle...for example, there is not a single woman in the fellowship! I'm not going off on a feminist rant, I was just wondering what other's opinions were on these topics...Which woman was strongest? What is the definition of femininity in LOTR?

[Alcuin]

There is nothing “misogynous� about Lord of the Rings. Combat does tend to be an activity in which men are primarily engaged, while women and children are hidden or protected. This fact was not lost on Éowyn, who confronted Aragorn with these words (RotK, “Passing of the Grey Company�):

All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

My vote for strongest woman – and most successful warrior in combat, man or woman – in Lord of the Rings is Éowyn Éomund’s daughter. She fought one battle, met one combatant, and she took him down. That she didn’t do it alone is of no matter: she was a true warrior in every sense of the word, worthy of any hero man or woman among the First Age Edain. Come to think of it, she changes more and faster than any other character in the tale, with the possible exception of Sam, who changes from klutzy lowborn sidekick to hero and leader of The Shire. Éowyn grows from would-be victim to dynast to hopeless warrior to courageous thane to healer to a true princess; and from there we can see that she will be wife and chief counselor to the first Prince of Emyn Arnen as well as mother to that line.

Galadriel is no slacker, either. Neither is Rosie Cotton. Arwen isn’t timid, and you don’t have to reference conflating Glorfindel with Arwen in the movie.

I think First Age women should be in this discussion, too. What about Lúthien? Niënor? Andreth? Morwen? MÃ*riel? Idril? Aredhel? None of these people were shrinking violets. Second Age: Erendis, Tar-Ancalimë; we don’t see much of Tar-Telperion, but I think the textual evidence is that she was one tough cookie and a solid administrator.

My vote for toughest woman in all of Tolkien: Haleth Haldad’s daughter.

But yes, I am an Éowyn fan.

Originally Posted by Fool_of_a_Took

What is the definition of femininity in LOTR?

I don’t know. What’s the “definition of masculinity in LOTR�? What’s the definition in real life?


As for why there were no women in the Fellowship: who should have been sent? Should we go back and re-write it? Is that a flaw, a convention, or a likely outcome under the purported circumstances? Were the Elven women likely to go out on the Road or the dangerous journey to Mordor? The Hobbit women? Any of the women of the Northern Dúnedain?

And the most dangerous question: What would probably have happened in real life if these things had transpired? In that light, is Éowyn more or less outstanding?

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Fool_of_a_Took

Which woman was strongest? What is the definition of femininity in LOTR?

Arwen.

She is out of all the major female characters in LOTR (not counting the other works here, for the sake of this thread) the "strongest". Why? Because she represents strength by being feminine. She is not disobedient, trying to be a warrior or something else she is not. She is not in a "leadership" position of power. But she is something that the others don't seem to embody...

She is the quintessential "supportive wife". Feminism-types, don't even start with me as to how that is not "powerful" - It is. The colloquial phrase "behind every great man there is a woman" is embodied by women like Arwen. Without her being a great "helpmeet" for Aragorn, who knows what kind of a flake he may have turned out to be? (I jest, but only in part.. ).

[Aikanáro]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Voronwen. All of Tolkien's female characters represent different aspects of femininity, but I felt that of those in LotR, Arwen isn't one I'd call strong.

She simply isn't developed enough as a character to give that impression. We know about her love for Aragorn, but it's very passive, and it seems more as if she is merely the 'prize' - the beautiful elven woman he will get to marry if he is successful. A hero having to complete his quest before he can marry the woman he loves is a common trope in literature - but it doesn't often make for strong female characters.

And if we compare Arwen to Lúthien, who she parallels? Ok, so Lúthien too is described as beautiful. She's half-Maia. But she actively helps Beren with his quest for the Silmaril, she's involved, an integral part of the story. Without her song lulling Morgoth to sleep, Beren wouldn't have been able to take the Silmaril. That makes her strong, whereas to my mind Arwen, in a similar situation, is not.

If you're referring to her strength as nurturing wife and mother, I'd say that Rosie Cotton is much more representative of that than she is. (and it's certainly not anti-feminist to recognize that 'strength' can be found in traditional feminine roles as well as those of combat, leadership etc.)

As for who I would pick as the strongest - probably Galadriel. Not so much for her position of leadership as simply for her ability to resist the temptation of the Ring. It shows strength, wisdom, and character growth (would Silmarillion-era Galadriel have made the same choice?)

Likewise Éowyn, for defying social convention and expectation, and following her heart - both as a warrior and as a healer.

I don't think there should have been a woman in the Fellowship. It wouldn't have made sense, given the cultural attitudes that the characters hold about gender roles. If the story was set on modern-day Earth, then yes, the all-male Fellowship would merit complaint, but as it is? It fits the context and the society in which they lived.

(But I still think Arwen is problematic. from a feminist standpoint, as is the narrative's treatment of Tar-Ancalime for not wanting to marry, if I recall rightly. It's a while since I read it.)

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Aikanáro

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Voronwen.

That's quite alright. Your points are well-argued. Indeed, each of these female characters perhaps personifies a different aspect of "strength". But it's a question that will be answered differently depending on one's definition of "feminine strength".

Arwen's is quiet, behind the scenes. It's her steadfastness, and the strength found in the fulfillment of her role (not the denial of it, as with Eowyn - you could almost argue that disobedience and non-acceptance of her role was a weakness on Eowyn's part) that makes me think of her as strong.

At least, that's my personal view of Arwen and what, as a character, she stands for. These are the qualities that make her the female character i relate best to in all of Tolkien's work. Chalk it up to personal bias.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Aikanáro

And if we compare Arwen to Lúthien, who she parallels? Ok, so Lúthien too is described as beautiful. She's half-Maia. But she actively helps Beren with his quest for the Silmaril, she's involved, an integral part of the story. Without her song lulling Morgoth to sleep, Beren wouldn't have been able to take the Silmaril. That makes her strong, whereas to my mind Arwen, in a similar situation, is not.

I have to disagree with you there. It's a while since I read ROTK, but if I remember rightly, Arwen comes to Aragorn in a dream and tells him to take the path in the land of the dead, guides him and gives him hope. She's an integral part in the story; in a way, she represents the beauty and strength of Middle Earth that Aragorn is fighting to keep alive.
It's interesting that Tolkien never really explores Arwen's character. In FOTR, when we meet her at Rivendell, I always felt she was supremely wise and that the bond between her and Aragorn went between the worlds. She's far more than a "prize," she is his life. Perhaps in LOTR Arwen represents the ancient and wisest femininity, giver of life and hope, the eternal mother, goddess, almost. It's for these reasons, as well as her beauty, that she is called the Evenstar, the last remnant of unparalleled light of the Eldar in Middle Earth, and reminds her people of Luthien so much.
While I loved the character of Eowyn, I do not believe she was the strongest or the wisest female character in Tolkien. Throughout LOTR, she was caught in a struggle against her own fears and doubts, and though at last she triumphantly overcomes them, she almost gives in to death. However she too is integral and represents the warrior spirit of the women of Rohan.
I am also unsure about Galadriel - she was reckless in youth, disobeying the Valar in the Noldorian revolt, but she does grow wiser over the ages. But she does desire the Ring, and this is a weakness.

Reading Tolkien, an incredibly strong image of motherly love emerges. Many of the great warriors and kings of Middle Earth had the strength of their mothers behind them; a good example is Morwen, mother of Turin and Nienor, who never stops fighting for her children and whose love for them sees her follow them across Middle Earth. In childhood, her counsel and love holds up Turin even when he must leave her; sustained by her memory, he stays strong even in the hardest journeys.

In my opinion, Melian, mother of Luthien, is the strongest woman (well, Maia, but still) in Tolkien. In the first age, her stronghold in Doriath with King Thingol keeps Morgoth at bay, and her love for Thingol keeps his rein strong and just. It is because of her power, "the girdle of Melian" that not every part of the Hither Shores become swamped in Morgoth's evil. In many of the other tales in The Silmarillion, she gives guidance and wisdom, especially in the tale of Beren and Luthien and regarding the Children of Hurin. For me, she embodies the spirit of all of Tolkien's women characters.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I have to disagree with you there. It's a while since I read ROTK, but if I remember rightly, Arwen comes to Aragorn in a dream and tells him to take the path in the land of the dead, guides him and gives him hope. She's an integral part in the story; in a way, she represents the beauty and strength of Middle Earth that Aragorn is fighting to keep alive.

You are mixing things up a little.
Elrond sends a message to Aragorn with Elrohir, reminding him of the Paths of the Dead. At the same time Arwen sends him the banner that she has made, and sends him a message with Halbarad to remind him of their hope.

Elrohir said to him:
‘I bring word to you from my father: The days are short. If thou art in haste, remember the Paths of the Dead.’
‘Always my days have seemed to me too short to achieve my desire,’ answered Aragorn. ‘But great indeed will be my haste ere I take that road.’
‘That will soon be seen,’ said Elrohir. ‘But let us speak no more of these things upon the open road!’
And Aragorn said to Halbarad: ‘What is that that you bear, kinsman?’ For he saw that instead of a spear he bore a tall staff, as it were a standard, but it was close-furled in a black cloth bound about with many thongs.
‘It is a gift that I bring you from the Lady of Rivendell,’ answered Halbarad. ‘She wrought it in secret, and long was the making. But she also sends word to you: The days now are short. Either our hope cometh, or all hopes end. Therefore I send thee what I have made for thee. Fare well, Elfstone!’
And Aragorn said: ‘Now I know what you bear. Bear it still for me a while!’ And he turned and looked away to the North under the great stars, and then he fell silent and spoke no more while the night’s journey lasted.

The Passing of the Grey Company, RotK

I agree that she guides him and gives him hope. But only in the movie does she come in a dream.

It's interesting that Tolkien never really explores Arwen's character. In FOTR, when we meet her at Rivendell, I always felt she was supremely wise and that the bond between her and Aragorn went between the worlds. She's far more than a "prize," she is his life. Perhaps in LOTR Arwen represents the ancient and wisest femininity, giver of life and hope, the eternal mother, goddess, almost. It's for these reasons, as well as her beauty, that she is called the Evenstar, the last remnant of unparalleled light of the Eldar in Middle Earth, and reminds her people of Luthien so much.

Perhaps it's because she is this kind of symbol, that he leaves her in the background and doesn't show us much of her actions - and thus doesn't really let us get to know her. Which is a pity in a way. We learn a little of her impact upon others, but not much about why she makes such an impact upon them.

[Morwen]

Ahh I see. Thank you for clearing that up.
Tolkien's women always possess an air of mystery. I think he's slightly in awe of his own characters, sometimes.

[Lefty Scaevola]

You cannot much top Luthien's exploits.
Attacking Sauron's Tower on the Island of Werewolves with Huan the uber-hound and winning, after Finrod, Beren, and 10 mighty Noldor companions were pwned by Sauron.
Crossing Morgoth's lands, invading Angband with Beren, and comming out alive and free and with a prize.
Doing the whole Orpheus thing, making Mandos weep, and getting Beren back for a while.

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

You cannot much top Luthien's exploits... Doing the whole Orpheus thing, making Mandos weep, and getting Beren back for a while.

For some reason I now picture Mandos saying "That's the best audition we've had so far. That's a yes from me. Not only do you get Beren back, but you're through to the next round..."

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Simon Cowell, of course, just makes snarky remarks.

[Morwen]

Haha, that's a great image. Mandos - Noldorian prince and talent show host on the side.