SPOLIERS! A motive for Boromir and Faramir

[Elfhelm]

I labeled the thread SPOILERS so we should be able to discuss it without greying out the text.

I can already hear BB saying it's a stroke of genius, and I can formualte the argument against it myself. In the Extended Edition, PJ has created a motive for Boromir and Faramir. After praising the older boy and castigating the younger, he then tells Boromir that he has been summoned (you heard right, summoned!) to the Council of Elrond. He then speculates, get this, that they found the One Ring!!!! He tells him to bring it back to Gondor, and Faramir, who is still stinging from his rebuke for the fall of Osgiliath, is there, too. This seems like such a neat little device to explain their behaviors that some (ahem) people might even call it an improvement.

But!!!!!

Boromir had a dream he didn't understand and he went to Rivendell to discuss it. The travel time from Gondor to Rivendell is too long for a summons to go one way and Boromir and his retinue to go the other way. If Gandalf knew about the One Ring and went to Saruman and was imprisoned at the pinnacle of Orthanc, how could Elrond have known about the Ring in time to send elves to summons Boromir to Council? And (I will gray out this because it is RotK related):

If Denethor thought he knew where the Ring was, wouldn't Sauron know when he read Denthor's mind through the corrupted palantir?

So I think it's a bad idea. Yet another mistake made in TTT. PJ said we wouldn't like TTT as much, and the more I see the less I like.

[Elfhelm]

Hey, self, what's a SPOLIER!?!?! ack!

[b.banner]

i want to see that part it sounds cool

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Oroginally posted by Elfhelm
"But!!!!!

Boromir had a dream he didn't understand and he went to Rivendell to discuss it."
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1-Just a note to add to the above, Faramir actually had the dream many times, and seems to have been the representative of Gondor originally "chosen" by [the Valar or Iluvatar?]. And it was Boromir who insisted he go find some hidden place known as Imladris, in place of Faramir, NOT Denethor. JRRT's version actually gives a shade of arrogance to Boromir which foreshadows his problem with the Ring.
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"he [Denethor] then tells Boromir that he has been summoned (you heard right, summoned!) to the Council of Elrond"
2-

[Elrond speaking] That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.

Ah well, I suppose some would prefer the puerile and murky philosophical observations of The Matrix as more suited to a movie producer's vision then one like the above. Humm, let's see. What part(s) of the above quote WEREN'T in FOTR movie?

P. S. Agent Smith gets increasingly uninteresting in both LOTR and Matrix movies. In Matrix 3 you rather feel sorry for him. In his confrontations with Keanu you're reminded of the 1972 U.S.-Soviet Olympics Gold Medal basketball game. There a British official let the Soviets keep trying until the won the game.

P.P.S. If you find Denethor and kids in TT EE "interesting", wait until you find out about Old Man Willow.

[Elfhelm]

Excellent, yes! An important point. It was Faramir's dream. Perhaps I better have another read because these facts are slipping from me.

Faramir had the dream and Faramir helped Gandalf research the One Ring, so it would have been better to use Faramir more and play up the dream more. I mean, there's a seemingly pointless meeting at the broken sword between Boromir and Aragorn, and a visual of the sword breaking and in RotK we know from the trailer that there is a re-forging scene, but the dream said seek the sword that was broken. And it was Faramir's dream but his brother was sent because Denthor couldn't bear to risk losing both his sons on a crazy vision quest.

I'll have to re-read the trilogy now to make sure I don't make any more of these mistakes.

[Bacchus]

I've been giving Faramir some thought lately. IMO, this needs analysis a bit more subtle than "the book didn't do it that way." PJ has chosen to focus on the weakness of Men, possibly in setting up Aragorn in marked contrast to the others. In this context, Faramir's behavior becomes a bit more understandable, whether we like the treatment given him or not.

On a side note, Sauron could not read Denethor's mind through the Palantir. they didn't work that way.

[Elfhelm]

Darn! It has only been a year and my mind has lost all it ever held dear!

Right, Sauron controls Denethor's palantir and only lets Denethor see what Sauron wants him to see, sort of like Rupert Murdock controlling Fox News.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Bacchus
"I've been giving Faramir some thought lately. IMO, this needs analysis a bit more subtle than "the book didn't do it that way." PJ has chosen to focus on the weakness of Men, possibly in setting up Aragorn in marked contrast to the others. In this context, Faramir's behavior becomes a bit more understandable, whether we like the treatment given him or not."
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Yes, you make a good point. And without negatively criticising people! Others might take note.

That's a central question/problem with some of PJ's decisions. Once you change one aspect of a characters motivation, background,etc. it can lead to a whole series of called for alterations. The question then is was such a change necessary or could a given character have stayed closer to the book. As I think may be implied by several comments upon, myself, Elfhelm, why not have filmed FOTR with the dream scenes in Gondor and brief Denethor and kids discussion and the rhyme in the dream. A very brief scene giving Boromir motivation for tension with Aragorn?

But since PJ chose to do it as he did, then I agree you have to follow through with Faramir movie character development. PJ made a choice, and I think it generally works as a movie, the question is, was it the best, and perhaps even a necessary choice? I'd say no, many may say yes.

[Elfhelm]

Well, the reason I say no is because I love the character they have created for Eowyn and I just can't see her being "won over" by this version of Faramir.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
"Sauron controls Denethor's palantir and only lets Denethor see what Sauron wants him to see, sort of like Rupert Murdock controlling Fox News."
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Hey, is that a rap at that fine unfair and offbalanced network that features Hannity and Colmes?

[Sween]

but in the books Denenthor knows where the ring is or at least know whast the plan is and has some idea of where the ring will be. The point that is easily overlooked is Denethor never bowed to Sauron will he never accepted him as lord or tried to help him (except by chance) infact he never opened his mind to him> Another debate would be did he try to read his mind or did sauron deem him too pointless becauseif he had all would of been lost for sure

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
why not have filmed FOTR with the dream scenes in Gondor and brief Denethor and kids discussion and the rhyme in the dream. A very brief scene giving Boromir motivation for tension with Aragorn?

It's all well and good to say PJ should have done this or PJ should have done that. But while a 'dream sequence' would have been nice, the filmmakers were extremely pressed for time. The movie was three hours as it was and New Line was betting the farm on the success of FOTR. They couldn't afford for it to fail. As a result, the editing was done, in the words of Producer Mark Odeskey, from a "Frodo-centric point of view." In other words, if it didn't directly impact Frodo or his journey, it was subject to the cutting room floor.

I don't know about the validity of this plot device, but true or not, the reality is that Denethor was never controlled by Sauron in the books and Sauron was never able to read his mind.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Right, Sauron controls Denethor's palantir and only lets Denethor see what Sauron wants him to see, sort of like Rupert Murdock controlling Fox News.

LOL!

IIRC, the dream isn't revealed until much later in the book (aftershadowing Boromir's fall??) It works well because we, the reader, are discovering more about the nature of the ring and the complexity of the conflict between good and evil.

It seems like they've created problems for themselves by suggesting there was a "summons" to Rivendell. Would've been better to cut out the "you owe him your allegiance" stuff from the Council and spent the time on the so-called coincidence of it.

Also, if the Ring was known about in Minas Tirith, how come Gandalf didn't know about it until FOTR got underway??

[thranduil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer


Also, if the Ring was known about in Minas Tirith, how come Gandalf didn't know about it until FOTR got underway??

Well we can guess from ROTK book that Denethor will be the same type of man. He really dislikes that old wizard, and doesn't trust him at all. I imagine he wanted Gandalf out of the matter. But then he does let Gandalf search his archives and libraries for information on the ring in Minas Tirith in FOTR. Puzzling. Like a jigsaw puzzle.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by thranduil
Like a jigsaw puzzle.

One that you have to use a hammer to make it fit together

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Yes, you make a good point. And without negatively criticising people! Others might take note.

Thanks. I'm a moderator at Sf-Fandom.com (along with SGH), so I try not to cause problems.

That's a central question/problem with some of PJ's decisions. Once you change one aspect of a characters motivation, background,etc. it can lead to a whole series of called for alterations. The question then is was such a change necessary or could a given character have stayed closer to the book. As I think may be implied by several comments upon, myself, Elfhelm, why not have filmed FOTR with the dream scenes in Gondor and brief Denethor and kids discussion and the rhyme in the dream. A very brief scene giving Boromir motivation for tension with Aragorn?

But since PJ chose to do it as he did, then I agree you have to follow through with Faramir movie character development. PJ made a choice, and I think it generally works as a movie, the question is, was it the best, and perhaps even a necessary choice? I'd say no, many may say yes.

The question of whether a given choice was necessary or best is a difficult one. However, it seems to me that from the standpoint of the movie, it is more important to capture Aragorn's exceptional qualities (i.e. the refusal of the Ring at Parth Galen) even at the cost of Faramir. Additionally, the book scene at Henneth Annun incorporated a certain uncertainty in Faramir's intended action. Book-Faramir immediately rejected the idea of taking the Ring from Frodo on the strength of his vow, but we do not learn of his decision to free Frodo until rather later. Movie-Faramir eventually does make the 'right' choice, it merely took somewhat longer for him to decide.

Originally posted by The Gaffer
IIRC, the dream isn't revealed until much later in the book (aftershadowing Boromir's fall??) It works well because we, the reader, are discovering more about the nature of the ring and the complexity of the conflict between good and evil.

Which dream? The one (experienced several times by Faramir and once by Boromir) that sent Boromir to Imladris was described at the Council. Faramir's dream of Darkness Inescapable (the Numenor/Atlantis-dream) was revealed at Henneth Annun

Also, if the Ring was known about in Minas Tirith, how come Gandalf didn't know about it until FOTR got underway??

Gandalf knew about the Ring long before. He only discovered that Frodo's Ring was the One in FOTR. It was reasonably common knowledge that the Ring had most likely been lost at the Gladden by Isildur.

[Cassius]

Didn't Boromir tallk about the dream in the EE of FOTR? If they put that in then it would contradict itself, it doesn't make any sense.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by Cassius
Didn't Boromir tallk about the dream in the EE of FOTR? If they put that in then it would contradict itself, it doesn't make any sense.

Yes he says isildurs bane is found, light from west, all that but note he didn't say he dreamed it, he starts of saying "A dream" whether he says I during this I couldn't say. But the book says that Boromir did have the dream once. So I don't see a contradiction.

[Cassius]

He started out saying "in a dream I saw" in he EE, I know it, watch it again and you will know it.

[Nurvingiel]

Though it's an obvious change (rather than an intepretation) from the book, I kind of like it. I think it works.

Naturally, I still think the book one made more sense. Not having seen the extended TTT, I can't really judge anyway.

I don't understand what stopped Jackson from doing the book scene anyway; it was super cool!