The Early Work of the Nine Rings

[Valandil]

From the portion in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age':

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And, one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's....

Now, another discussion got my mind going on some of this and I thought I'd share and solicit other opinions:

1. What do you think the powers were like that were granted to those nine men in the earliest years?
2. What do you think their kingdoms were like throughout their reigns?
3. In what order do you think they became transformed into wraiths?
4. What do you think determined the 'Pecking Order' of the Nine... ?? Why were some more powerful as Nazguls than others?

Here are some partial answers I myself would give:

1. I only just noticed about how they could be invisible at will. I take it then that they didn't necessarily become invisible when wearing their rings. This may spark controversy, because there are some HoMe sections about a person's spirit, etc - but I have wondered at times if the One Ring made people invisible only because Isildur had commanded it to make him invisible when he put it on at the Gladden Fields. It was then sort of 'stuck' in that mode of causing invisibility. Subsequent wearers either didn't have the will to reverse that or it never occured to them that they could. Isildur could have known about the abilities granted to the Nine some 1500 years before - and might have been unconcerned about using the One himself, because 'Sauron was dead... (right?)'

2. We can only speculate, but things were probably great at first, then fell into ruin. However, that may have taken centuries. The Nine probably outlived their direct heirs... and as they turned more and more evil may have intentionally eliminated them. Early on, probably nine rival but somewhat aligned countries, rising to prominence over the other Men of Middle-earth... but then fading and falling... leaving chaos in their wake.

3. There are two traits which seem to determine how readily each ringbearer became a wraith: native strength and the good or evil in their wills. I take it that those who were stronger and those who were good would resist longer. So... the first to succumb would be the weaker ones who were already inclined to evil (they were partly there... evil-wise, and had less resistance to being dominated), next either those who were stronger and evil or weaker and had tried to do good... last of all, those who were strong-minded but of good intentions.

4. Somewhat twisted version of when they became wraiths. I suggest that those who were strong and who had been originally inclined toward evil would have made the strongest wraiths... probably the Witch-King and Khamul fell into this category. Next would be those who were weaker-willed, but had been inclined to evil. Third would be those who were weaker-willed, but had been initially inclined to do good... what they had become would cut against their grain. Weakest of all might have been those last to fall... those who were strong-minded and who had been inclined to do good. For... their own ring, and Sauron and his One, would have totally broken them... they might weakly follow commands - and sure - in so doing would have still had the power of a ring-wraith, but could probably do absolutely nothing on their own.

Feedback?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

For number 4 I'd say that some were stronger, more powerful men who'd becmoe corrupted.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Isildur could have known about the abilities granted to the Nine some 1500 years before - and might have been unconcerned about using the One himself, because 'Sauron was dead... (right?)'

Definately, Isildur had known about the abilities of the owners of the other Rings of Power to see the carrier of the Ring even if he is staying invisible.This explains why he did not stay and fight being invisible.

Originally Posted by Valandil

We can only speculate, but things were probably great at first, then fell into ruin.
So... the first to succumb would be the weaker ones who were already inclined to evil (they were partly there... evil-wise, and had less resistance to being dominated), next either those who were stronger and evil or weaker and had tried to do good... last of all, those who were strong-minded but of good intentions.
I suggest that those who were strong and who had been originally inclined toward evil would have made the strongest wraiths...

Applicable. But I think that from the beginning they all had been inclined to do good, they just needed more time and some aid, this why they accepted the Magic Rings, and probably with the rings aid they achieved a lot of great deeds, but as the rings were slowly but surely corrupting the souls (Kind like Prozac. Did you hear today’s news that 10 yeas old sweet quiet boy on Prozac savagely shot his father?), they were falling down to dark pit of malevolence.

I found an interesting discrepancies in the dated of the Numenorian Kings. I suspect that some of the Nazguls had carried well known names.
Unfortunately, I don’t have time for the deep search on such intriguing subject.

[brownjenkins]

interesting... i like your speculations... one thing though

They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun

"if they would" may mean, "if they decided to put the ring on"... it does not necessarily imply that they could wear the ring and not be invisible

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

...it does not necessarily imply that they could wear the ring and not be invisible

Correction. Lately they did not carry the Rings. Sauron was keeping all if them.
So it's imply that they could make themselves invisible or visible even without the rings.

[Valandil]

I think in their wraith state, they simply WERE invisible. Frodo only began to see them as they were (without the Ring on) because he was perilously close to becoming a wraith himself.

[Attalus]

It seems that the invisibility that the Nine conferred, no matter how they did it, was their most prized power. Spying on enemies and one's own courtiers, hearing what the commoners were really thinking, perhaps even sneaking into certain silken boudoirs unaware. Hey, they were evil. The seeing things in the wriath world seems more problematic.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Correction. Lately they did not carry the Rings. Sauron was keeping all if them.
So it's imply that they could make themselves invisible or visible even without the rings.

i think val might have it... they had reached a point where they could no longer become visible... before they needed the ring... but no more

one interesting sidenote... how about the morgul blade? it was stated as starting to make frodo fade, and if it reached the heart... it would have immediately... possibly another creation of sauron's similar to the rings?

[Michael Martinez]

Sauron did not take back the Nine Rings until late in the Third Age. When the Men who possessed the Rings were originally using them, they may or may not have had the ability to control their own visibility while wearing the Rings. We have too little information about the Rings to know what their mortal keepers could do.

The One Ring, in the hands of Hobbits, was another matter altogether. It was far more powerful than the other Rings and may have had a will of its own.

[Olmer]

Agree with brownjenkins, they "faded" to the point when they can't be seen and totally subordinate to Sauron even without wearing the Rings.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

...how about the morgul blade? it was stated as starting to make frodo fade... possibly another creation of sauron's similar to the rings?

Interesting suggestion. Never thought about it. Now, when I see the similarities , I think that Artano the "high-smith", besides the rings, had in mind to make a lot of cute stuff, which could turn the owners into his slaves.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Valandil

4. Somewhat twisted version of when they became wraiths. I suggest that those who were strong and who had been originally inclined toward evil would have made the strongest wraiths... probably the Witch-King and Khamul fell into this category. Next would be those who were weaker-willed, but had been inclined to evil. Third would be those who were weaker-willed, but had been initially inclined to do good... what they had become would cut against their grain. Weakest of all might have been those last to fall... those who were strong-minded and who had been inclined to do good. For... their own ring, and Sauron and his One, would have totally broken them... they might weakly follow commands - and sure - in so doing would have still had the power of a ring-wraith, but could probably do absolutely nothing on their own.

Interesting thoughts, Val ...

Given, say, Naz1 and Naz2, where their native powers are approx. equal, but Naz1 tends towards evil and Naz2 is still "inclined to do good" when they get the preciousss ringses ... I see what you're saying, how the one that's inclined to do good would fight it longer, and thus might be more "broken" and weaker than the one that didn't spend energy fighting the evil. [Mr. Spock voice]Interesting ... [/end Mr. Spock voice]

Feedback?

No, I can hear you just fine, thanks

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Interesting thoughts, Val ...

Given, say, Naz1 and Naz2, where their native powers are approx. equal, but Naz1 tends towards evil and Naz2 is still "inclined to do good" when they get the preciousss ringses ... I see what you're saying, how the one that's inclined to do good would fight it longer, and thus might be more "broken" and weaker than the one that didn't spend energy fighting the evil. [Mr. Spock voice]Interesting ... [/end Mr. Spock voice]

That was my first thought on it, but I'm not certain of it now... don't we generally hold that if Gandalf or Aragorn or Elrond or Galadriel - had taken the One Ring, that THEY would have been quite powerful with it, 'good' though they were? OTOH, that WAS 'The One' - rather than one of 'The Nine'...

No, I can hear you just fine, thanks

Dost thou challenge me to a 'Pun War'?!?!??

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Valandil

That was my first thought on it, but I'm not certain of it now... don't we generally hold that if Gandalf or Aragorn or Elrond or Galadriel - had taken the One Ring, that THEY would have been quite powerful with it, 'good' though they were? OTOH, that WAS 'The One' - rather than one of 'The Nine'...

Hmm, good point - "The One" vs. "The Nine" - speculation is so much more fun than laundry!

Dost thou challenge me to a 'Pun War'?!?!??

No, no! *retreats in terror*

[Kirinki54]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Sauron did not take back the Nine Rings until late in the Third Age.

All of the 9 rings? What is the textual evidence of that? Please enlighten us.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Kirinki54

All of the 9 rings? What is the textual evidence of that? Please enlighten us.

"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" and "The Tale of Years" (Appendix B in The Lord of the Rings) both indicate that Gandalf discovered Sauron was taking back the Rings of Power when he learned that the Necromancer was really Sauron returned.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" and "The Tale of Years" (Appendix B in The Lord of the Rings) both indicate that Gandalf discovered Sauron was taking back the Rings of Power when he learned that the Necromancer was really Sauron returned.

The entry in Appendix B is for the year TA 2850:

2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thrain and receives the key of Erebor. Thrain dies in Dol Guldur."

Here is the passage from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

Now the Shadow grew greater, and the hearts of Elrond and Mithrandir darkened. Therefore on a time Mithrandir at great peril went again to Dol Guldur and the pits of the Sorceror, and he discovered the truth of his fears, and escaped. And returning to Elrond he said:

'True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Ulairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they still live on earth.'

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Interesting suggestion. Never thought about it. Now, when I see the similarities , I think that Artano the "high-smith", besides the rings, had in mind to make a lot of cute stuff, which could turn the owners into his slaves.

While Sauron might ultimately have created the Morgul-blades and their sorcery, the name of the weapons implies they were not encountered prior to the second capture of Minas Ithil, in TA 2002.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

While Sauron might ultimately have created the Morgul-blades and their sorcery, the name of the weapons implies they were not encountered prior to the second capture of Minas Ithil, in TA 2002.

OTOH - they may have been known by some other name prior. Wonder if they were made in Angmar... to counter the Numenorean blades like those found in the Barrow.

[Manveru]

this is all very interesting... but Sauron must have had alot of fingers to be wearing all of these rings. the NINE rings of men, plus he's got four of the dwarf rings, with a finger ready to wear the one as soon as he's found it. That's 14 fingers plus 2 thumbs is 16 fingers. That's 8 fingers per hand. Unless the nine were toe-rings...

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Manveru

this is all very interesting... but Sauron must have had alot of fingers to be wearing all of these rings. the NINE rings of men, plus he's got four of the dwarf rings, with a finger ready to wear the one as soon as he's found it. That's 14 fingers plus 2 thumbs is 16 fingers. That's 8 fingers per hand. Unless the nine were toe-rings...

Vola! Finally we figured out that Sauron turned himself not into the Eye with acute conjunctivitis, but into a Giant Caterpillar with bangles ot each
leg.
Give Sauron a credit, will ya? He is not mentally challenged to grow an additional fingers just to be able to wear all magic rings at once.