The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

[Maedhros]

Bravo Cassiopea. I tip my hat to you.

feel that Fëanor was too hasty in confronting his half-brother, although no doubt the lies of Melkor fired the flame in his belly.

This might bring a little clarity to the discussion:
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas: Of The Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

§52e But even as he spoke, suddenly Fëanor appeared, and he strode into the chamber tall and threatening. A fire of anger was in his eyes, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said: 'my half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters. He would not wait for the council, where all words would be heard by all, and answered. He would speak against me in secret. This I will not brook!' he cried, turning upon Fingolfin. 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' Then as a flash of flame he drew his sword. 'Get thee gone and dare my wrath no longer!'

Why would the noble Fingolfin not give Fëanor the time for him to defend himself and wait for the council to be ready. What Fëanor did was wrong but, why wouldn't Fingolfin wait for both causes to be stated before everyone.

Did Fëanor foreshadow the destruction of the Two Trees by Melkor and Ungoliant? If Fëanor possessed such precognitive powers, why did he not foreshadow the destruction the Silmarils would ultimately cause?

You could make the same cause with both Námo and Manwë. Did Námo knew that Finwë would be slained in Formenos by Morgoth, and if so, why didn't he do anything to stop it.

Is there any significance in the fact that three Silmarilli were made? Has it something to do with the three themes of Ilúvatar, or something else?

Could be, of course there could be said that a greater parallel exists between the Elven rings made by Celebrimbor and the Silmarils of Fëanor. Maybe Tolkien liked the number 3.

All right, I admit, I don't quite understand this passage. When the Sun passes and the Moon falls, the Earth will be unmade as well (I assume, but perhaps I’m wrong). The elves are bound to the Earth, so I thought when the Earth is destroyed, the elves would die. After all, the destruction the Silmarils caused, surely it would be a good idea to never real their substance, lest another tragedy occurs.

The Silmarils are not the cause of the Tragedy of the Ñoldor, it's the marring of Arda by Morgoth. If the Second Prophecy of Mandos of the Quenta Ñoldorinwa is true, then in the end, when Morgoth will return and the last battle will be fought, he would be defeated once and for all and the New Arda, Arda remade, that is Arda with the marred elements of Melkors cured, will be greater than Arda unmarred, Arda without the Melkorian elements. And it will be because of the Silmarils of Fëanor that the trees will be made again, and all would be good.

[Falagar]

The Silmarils are not the cause of the Tragedy of the Ñoldor, it's the marring of Arda by Morgoth. If the Second Prophecy of Mandos of the Quenta Ñoldorinwa is true, then in the end, when Morgoth will return and the last battle will be fought, he would be defeated once and for all and the New Arda, Arda remade, that is Arda with the marred elements of Melkors cured, will be greater than Arda unmarred, Arda without the Melkorian elements. And it will be because of the Silmarils of Fëanor that the trees will be made again, and all would be good.

I think Eru should hurry up...

[cassiopeia]

*Blushes* Thanks Maedhros, I was actually very nervous posting my introduction.
That's interesting about Galadriel's phial. Did she actually make it, and if so did she learn it from Aule or Mathan? I don't suppose the phial would be made of the same materials as the Silmarils, so does that mean there are two (at least) kinds of material that can catch light? Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.

[Maedhros]

Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.

Maybe he could. After all his knowledge was great. It seems to me that in his perversion and downfall, he couldn't create things only mock. In a way he lost his originality. He bred dragons, orcs, etc.
Now that I think about it, Dragons are an original concept. . I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Why, then, couldn't Melkor make his own type of 'Silmarils'? Perhaps not as lovely as Feanor's, but akin to the star-glass. I suppose this goes back to my original question as to why Melkor wanted to posess the Silmarils.

I don't think Melkor had the ability to work with light. Darkness had been his domain, even since the Music. When the SIlmarils had been created, he lusted for them in the same way as he desired the dominion of Arda. He was unable to create anything himself, so he was left to steal and corrupt the creations of others. He also hated the Elves and held them responsible for his defeat and his long exile in the Void, and he was jealous of their life in bliss in Aman. To bereave them from the light of the Two Trees, to set them up against the Valar and steal the Silmarils was a delightful revenge

Originally posted by Maedhros
I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

O-o. Serious OT warning. Must ..... resist ...... to ..... answer ......

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
.....Now that I think about it, Dragons are an original concept. . I guess this opens the question as to what is a dragon?

I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of Manwë's Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

[Sween]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of Manwë's Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

I would personally verge on the side that thinks that the quote about not been able to make anything new a bit of a exgeration im sure dragons where an origional creation made only in an attempt to challenge the might of manwes Eagels

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Why would the noble Fingolfin not give Fëanor the time for him to defend himself and wait for the council to be ready. What Fëanor did was wrong but, why wouldn't Fingolfin wait for both causes to be stated before everyone.

Perhaps because he knew how much Finwë loved Fëanor and feared maybe that Finwë would not listen to him when Fëanor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Perhaps because he knew how much Finwë loved Fëanor and feared maybe that Finwë would not listen to him when Fëanor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

i dont think it was a council matter either! All Finglofin was saying was hey my bros been a bit over the top maybe you should have a word. It would of been dangerous judgeing Feanors mood to make it an official matter of the Noldor making it look like Finglofin ment to userp the power of the Noldor even more

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sween
I would personally verge on the side that thinks that the quote about not been able to make anything new a bit of a exgeration im sure dragons where an origional creation made only in an attempt to challenge the might of manwes Eagels

Yes, the dragons are 'original' in a sense, but they were made based on the eagles - like Melkor was saying 'geez, I hate those darn eagles! I bet I can make something even more powerful, tho!", then starts corrupting things to make the dragons - horrible caracatures of the noble eagles. I think Melkor was not too original - he was just good at copying/corrupting things.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sween
i dont think it was a council matter either! All Finglofin was saying was hey my bros been a bit over the top maybe you should have a word.

(Hey, I quoted Sween 2 times in a row!)

I agree - I think Fëanor overreacted in his suspicion (fueled by Melkor's lies).

What I really wonder about, 'tho, is why Finwë didn't appear to do anything - he was, after all, King! and seemed to be respected by both sons. Why didn't he tell both Fëanor and Fingolfin to sit down, be quiet, and cool off, and then proceed to run a meeting?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I thought I had read somewhere that Melkor's dragons were a copy/corruption of Manwë's Eagles - does that sound familiar to anyone?

Oh darn - this seems to be a topic anyway - no, it doesn't sound familiar. It doesn't sound likely to me, I think the dragons were too independent to be a product of Melkor. It's more tempting to think the dragons, and perhaps also the Eagles, were all in origin Maiar. Then dragons would be evil, independent spirits that chose to be in alliance with Melkor, much the same way as Ungoliant.

What I really wonder about, 'tho, is why Finwë didn't appear to do anything - he was, after all, King! and seemed to be respected by both sons. Why didn't he tell both Fëanor and Fingolfin to sit down, be quiet, and cool off, and then proceed to run a meeting?

Perhaps he knew his sons too well to do that. Restraining Fëanor was an art mastered only by Nerdanel, and not for ever.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, the dragons are 'original' in a sense, but they were made based on the eagles - like Melkor was saying 'geez, I hate those darn eagles! I bet I can make something even more powerful, tho!", then starts corrupting things to make the dragons - horrible caracatures of the noble eagles. I think Melkor was not too original - he was just good at copying/corrupting things.

Well, there is that whole thing about how Morgoth was perpetually trying to attain entrance, so to speak, into Manwe's realm (air). Wasn't it in an earlier thread that this came up? His efforts to 'create' creatures that could fly?

[Wayfarer]

It's more tempting to think the dragons, and perhaps also the Eagles, were all in origin Maiar.

The eagles are certainly /not/ (Read 'of aule and yavanna', it makes clear that the ents and the eagles were independent creations within ME and not spirits from outside it) and it is unlikely that dragons were either.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The eagles are certainly /not/ (Read 'of aule and yavanna', it makes clear that the ents and the eagles were independent creations within ME and not spirits from outside it)

Well, the published Silmarillion at this point contradicts the Ainulindalë as it is written in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring:

But Manwe Sulimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, which was the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the Seas. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the sea and could pierce the hidden caverns under the world, and their wings could bear them through the three regions of the firmament beyond the lights of heaven to the edge of Darkness.

and it is unlikely that dragons were either.

Why is it unlikely?

[Attalus]

I have seen several theories on the origins of the Dragons, and I am not happy about any of them. The simplest, and probably correct one, IMHO, is that Tolkein just thought Dragons were dragons and there was no need to explain carefully about them like he did with the Balrogs. The second is the one just quoted, that they were Eagles corrupted. I don't care for that, as there is no mention that I can find of any capture of an Eagle by Morgoth. The third is the Maia-of -air one, and I have to admit that it makes the most sense, though, as I say, I am not happy about it. Or Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, either.

[Maedhros]

Perhaps because he knew how much Finwë loved Fëanor and feared maybe that Finwë would not listen to him when Fëanor was present. As for the council, I suppose he didn't feel all to happy discussing his brother's acts before the council. I can understand one would want to discuss such things with one's father in private. It's what I would do.

That is a sad excuse. You should give the other part the opportunity to defend themselves. It's only fair.

[Earniel]

*shrugs* If you think so. I suppose I can't really get my point across but what I meant is: Who ever said Fëanor never got the chance to defend himself? It wasn't like Fingolfin espected Finwë to immediatly condemn Fëanor. I see Fingolfin as a brother who sees his brother who's prone to hotheaded actions start some trouble and wishes to inform his father of it so that he can take action like a father and not like a king. It's more of a family affair, the council has little to do about it.

The point is that I think that Fingolfin wanted to deal with the case within the family, quietly and quickly without bringing it before the rest of the council where it was bound to go out of hand and spreads even more unrest.

[Artanis]

I don't know Eärniel, Fingolfin was keen on being second to the title High King of the Ñoldor. Fingolfin and Fëanor were not only half-brothers, they were also rivals. Not that it is any excuse for Fëanor.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Attalus
I have seen several theories on the origins of the Dragons, and I am not happy about any of them. The simplest, and probably correct one, IMHO, is that Tolkein just thought Dragons were dragons and there was no need to explain carefully about them like he did with the Balrogs. The second is the one just quoted, that they were Eagles corrupted. I don't care for that, as there is no mention that I can find of any capture of an Eagle by Morgoth. The third is the Maia-of -air one, and I have to admit that it makes the most sense, though, as I say, I am not happy about it. Or Ungoliant or the Watcher in the Water, either.

I agree with you.
Although he could not create or give life to creatures, is it possible that he could give the gift of speech? Perhaps dragons were simply creatures that he brought to his side and to whom he was able to give speech. Just a musing. There was discussion elsewhere of animals in ME that could speak (was it a raven or rook in The Hobbit?), and maybe dragons learned it in a similar way.