The Silmarillion: Ch. 6: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

[Wayfarer]

If any of the Valar at least Nienna should remember Melkor’s evils the longest. Yet she is the one to plead his case. Did she pity Melkor for his incarceration?

Perhaps. But I imagine that, while she mourned the hurts melkor did to Arda, she must have equally mourned those hurts which he had done to himself. For the sins of Melkor, Melkor alone must make full payment.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Finwë had some responsability too.
[snip]
Failling from the highest hope.

Certainly. I think Finwë's fëa was tainted, as was MÃ*riel's.

He's the elf. There is a world of difference between Fëanor and your average elf. He was a genius. His inventions in language only makes him that. His craftmanship put him on a whole new level.
Fëanor was the elf who knew most about the Valarin language of the Valar.

Quite. But he was not the most wise of the Elves, nor the most noble-spirited, even if he thought so himself.

Of Nerdanel

Originally posted by Eärniel
It is a pity that they became estranged. But I also wonder which deeds made her turn away from him. Was it because he aimed his sword at Fingolfin? It can’t be his leading the Noldor out of Valinor for then there would be no time for them to become estranged and there is no record (at least to my knowledge) that she left Valinor with him.

Nerdanel and Fëanor became estranged because of his rebellion against the Valar, in which she refused to take part. She went to stay in her father's house, and did not go to Middle-Earth. There is a passage about their last parting in the Shibboleth, where Nerdanel foretells the fate of Ambarto, one of their twin sons:

Later, as Feanor became more and more fell and violent, and rebelled against the Valar, Nerdanel, after long endeavouring to change his mood, became estranged. (Her kin were devoted to Aule, who counselled her father to take no part in the rebellion. 'It will in the end only lead Feanor and all your children to
death.') She retired to her father's house; but then it became clear that Feanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever, she came to him before the host started on its northward march, and begged that Feanor should leave her the two youngest, the twins, or one at least of them. He replied: 'Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aule, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of your children. For they are determined to go with their father.' Then Nerdanel was angry and she answered: 'You will not keep all of them. One at least will never set foot on Middle-earth.' 'Take your evil omens to the Valar who will delight in them,' said Feanor. 'I defy them'. So they parted.

I do not quite understand Nerdanel here. She knows for sure one of her sons will die, and Aulë has warned her father of the death of their other children also. And yet she lets them go away seemingly without much effort to stop them. Unbelievable.

Originally posted by Attalus
I really must add, NO GALADRIEL!!!

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
I do not quite understand Nerdanel here. She knows for sure one of her sons will die, and Aulë has warned her father of the death of their other children also. And yet she lets them go away seemingly without much effort to stop them. Unbelievable.

Nerdanel knew Fëanor and her sons the best. I suppose she knew there was nearly nothing that would make them change their minds. And that more attempts to make them stay would be equally useless.

[Rían]

from the Shibboleth
but then it became clear that Feanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever

The quote includes the sons - I imagine her talking to them, but eventually seeing they are dead set on going, and the little scene between Nerdanel and Fëanor we see in the book was the last discussion on the matter. She knew her best chance to save her sons at this point was one last appeal to their father - if he changed his mind, then they probably would, too.

[Artanis]

RÃ*an and Eärniel, these are valid points. But I speak and feel as a mother here I would have fought until death for my children, it doesn't seem like Nerdanel would. And she did not ask Fëanor to change his mind, she asked him only to leave one or two of the twins behind.

Perhaps Nerdanel, knowing well the personalities of her spouse and sons, understood that her pressing them on the matter would only make them more determinant to go, just like MÃ*riel became more and more obstinate in her decision to not return from Mandos for each time Finwë pleaded. What a dreadful situation.

Edit: Smiley should be a saddy

[Rían]

Yes, I think you're right, Artanis and Eärniel - the more she pressed her sons to change, the more they would decide to stay with their decision, just like MÃ*riel. She probably felt that her only hope at this point was with her husband (wives can sometimes convince husbands to change their minds ... ) - I wonder how much Fëanor really did love her at the beginning of their marriage? Nerdanel's father was such a famous craftsman - I hope it wasn't only for that reason that Fëanor married her ...

(and here I go again, talking like these are real people! Tolkien's writing is SO vivid and realistic and beautiful!)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
For those who like names, like I do:

Btw, more about names. I've always wondered about the origin of the names of Fingolfin and Finarfin, they seemed such odd names. The Shibboleth gave the answer: Fingolfin is the Sindarin rendering of Finwë Ñolofinwë (wise-), and Finarfin is the Sindarin rendering of Finwë Arafinwë (noble-).

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
(and here I go again, talking like these are real people! Tolkien's writing is SO vivid and realistic and beautiful!)

Don't stop. That's what makes these discussions so interesting.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I wonder how much Fëanor really did love her at the beginning of their marriage? Nerdanel's father was such a famous craftsman - I hope it wasn't only for that reason that Fëanor married her ...

Wasn't Nerdanel well skilled in crafts herself? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. I think the marriage of Nerdanel and Fëanor would have worked out far better hadn't Melkor been around.

[Fat middle]

Artanis, i think the quote you are thinking of is about Myriel. Tolkien says that her hands were the most skilled of all elves (before Fëanor was born).

[Maedhros]

I wonder how much Fëanor really did love her at the beginning of their marriage? Nerdanel's father was such a famous craftsman - I hope it wasn't only for that reason that Fëanor married her ...

This is of course prejudice.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas

While still in early youth Fëanor wedded Nerdanel, a maiden of the Noldor; at which many wondered, for she was not among the fairest of her people. But she was strong, and free of mind, and filled with the desire of knowledge. In her youth she loved to wander far from the dwellings of the Noldor, either beside the long shores of the Sea or in the hills; and thus she and Fëanor had met and were companions in many journeys.

Elves took their marriages very seriously, I doubt that someone as Nerdanel would marry someone who wasn't truly in love with her.

[Rían]

Yes, I think that's it, Fat Middle (what, too many empanadas? ) - I remember the bit about MÃ*riel being incredibly skilled in weaving. All I can recall about Nerdanel is how she was of a similar mind to Fëanor, but didn't want to master people, like Fëanor did *searches for quote* Oh my goodness! I just found something I had completely forgotton from Morgoth's Ring - here's the quote I was looking for :

She also was firm of will, but she was slower and more patient than Fëanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them.

But I also found this:

Of Mahtan Nerdanel learned much of crafts that women of the Noldor seldom used: the making of things of metal and stone. She made images, some of the Valar in their forms visible, and many others of men and women of the Eldar, and these were so like that their friends, if they knew not her art, would speak to them; but many things she wrought also of her own thought in shapes strong and strange but beautiful.

So Nerdanel was very skilled, too - I had forgotten that quote.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is of course prejudice.....Elves took their marriages very seriously, I doubt that someone as Nerdanel would marry someone who wasn't truly in love with her.

I think that it's possible that Nerdanel's father's skill had at least some influence in Fëanor's decision to marry Nerdanel. Elves took marriage very seriously, but in MR it also implies that at least some marriages might have other elements besides love -

The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part.

And to the Noldor, knowledge and skill were extremely important.

[Maedhros]

I think that it's possible that Nerdanel's father's skill had at least some influence in Fëanor's decision to marry Nerdanel.

Why couldn't Fëanor learned from Mahtan if he wasn't married to Nerdanel? Was Mahtan jelous of his knowledge?

[Rían]

My opinion comes from being a daughter-in-law. I know that once a person is married, it's a different (and ideally much closer and better) relationship with your husband's parents than before you were married. You really become part of the family. And I imagine that families have some secrets they share only with other family members, just like some moms have secret family recipies. I think that once Fëanor married Nerdanel, Mahtan would be willing to spend more time with him and help him to learn more.

[Maedhros]

I think that once Fëanor married Nerdanel, Mahtan would be willing to spend more time with him and help him to learn more.

Hehe. Fëanor was the Elf who knew more about the Valarin language than any other elf. Who taught him taugh him that?
Aulë did. If Aulë could teach him that, why wouldn't he learn metalcraft from him?
Why would Mahtan withdraw knowledge just because they are not family?
That sounds human and not elvish. After all, Fëanor was so brilliant that, he only needed the basics.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Hehe. Fëanor was the Elf who knew more about the Valarin language than any other elf. Who taught him taugh him that?
Aulë did. If Aulë could teach him that, why wouldn't he learn metalcraft from him?

I think Fëanor DID learn metalcraft from Aulë. However, Aulë also had other things to attend to, and other people to teach and help, and prob. could not spend as much time with Fëanor as Fëanor desired.

Why would Mahtan withdraw knowledge just because they are not family?

Not that Mahtan would WITHDRAW knowledge, but again it comes down to time and priority, and one naturally gives family more time and higher priority. I'm sure there were LOTS of people that wanted to learn from Mahtan.

That sounds human and not elvish. After all, Fëanor was so brilliant that, he only needed the basics.

I disagree. I imagine he picked things up really fast, and he went beyond his teachers, but I still think he needed to be taught. And Mahtan DID teach him, for he regretted it later on:

Bitterly Mahtan rued the day when he had taught to the husband of Nerdanel, his daughter, all the lore of metal work that he learned of Aulë.

[Maedhros]

Not that Mahtan would WITHDRAW knowledge, but again it comes down to time and priority, and one naturally gives family more time and higher priority. I'm sure there were LOTS of people that wanted to learn from Mahtan.

Such as .......?

I disagree. I imagine he picked things up really fast, and he went beyond his teachers, but I still think he needed to be taught.

Of course.
Can you give me evidence to support your claim that Fëanor was motivated from other things than love for marrying Nerdanel.

[Rían]

by Maedhros
Such as .......?

I imagine you are well aware of the many times that JRRT refers to the Noldor as loving knowledge and loving to make things. I think it is a reasonable assumption that many of them would be thrilled to be instructed by Mahtan, who is named as a 'great smith' and dear to Aulë, wouldn't you think?

from Morgoth's Ring, the later qs
Her father, Mahtan, was a great smith, and among those of the Noldor most dear to the heart of Aulë.

And if Fëanor, probably a good judge of skill , wanted Mahtan to teach him things, I think it's reasonable to assume that others did, too. Nerdanel was taught by her father, too, and she certainly seemed to have a great deal of skill. But no, I can't give you any more specific names; Tolkien, that I'm aware of, didn't include such a list.

by Maedhros
Can you give me evidence to support your claim that Fëanor was motivated from other things than love for marrying Nerdanel.

I said --> "I think that it's possible that Nerdanel's father's skill had at least some influence in Fëanor's decision to marry Nerdanel." I support that by noting the many flaws in Fëanor's character that JRRT notes in the Sil and in HoME 10 and 12, culminating in the strongly implied guilt of Fëanor in knowingly killing his own son when he burnt the ships. If he is capable of that, then marrying Nerdanel partly to gain better access to her father's skill does not by any means seem beyond him; would you agree? I have no evidence, but I think it's a reasonable surmise, since there IS evidence that Fëanor does not seem to be against basely using others to further his own interests. But I DO think that Fëanor's PRIMARY reason to wed Nerdanel was love (but I have no evidence for this, either )

[Maedhros]

If he is capable of that, then marrying Nerdanel partly to gain better access to her father's skill does not by any means seem beyond him; would you agree? I have no evidence, but I think it's a reasonable surmise, since there IS evidence that Fëanor does not seem to be against basely using others to further his own interests.

I think it's reasonably to surmise that Fëanor could have used other teachers too. I could surmise that Fëanor is an easy target to villify too. Since there is no evindence then, it just an opinion.