The Silmarillion ch.5: Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Fëanor being THE LOREMASTER of the Ñoldor certainly had other reasons for wanting to keep the Þ.

Yes, Maitimo, he certainly did - I didn't mean to imply that was the only reason. I was just pointing out some of the emotional ties to the Þ. Another bit from the Shibboleth (for the benefit of those that don't have it ) :

Into the strife and confusion of loyalties in that time this seemingly trivial matter, the change of Þ to s, was caught up to its embitterment, and to lasting detriment to the Quenya tongue. Had peace been maintained there can be no doubt that the advice of Fëanor, with which all the other loremasters privately or openly agreed, would have prevailed. But an opinion in which he was certainly right was rejected because of the follies and evil deeds into which he was later led. He made it a personal matter: he and his sons adhered to Þ, and they demanded that all those who were sincere in their support should do the same. Therefore those who resented his arrogance, and still more those whose support later turned to hatred, rejected his shibboleth.

An interesting side note is that Finarfin's house used the Þ because of his love of the Vanyar, his mother's people, and the Teleri - "Finarfin being moved by Fëanor neither one way or the other but doing as he wished." But Galadriel, his daughter, "certainly used s in her own daily speech" because "opposition to Fëanor soon became a dominant motive with Galadriel". Whew, all these family politics!! Finarfin sounds like the only one with sense in this matter.

[azalea]

How are you making the P thing?

[Rían]

I'm cutting and pasting, but I imagine it's one of the alt-number code thingies...

[Artanis]

I think it's interesting to see that while the majority of the people changed Þ to s, there were a few 'learned' persons who opposed it. It reminds me of a few linguistic debates that goes on today. A language in daily use is bound to change due to changes in society and influence from other languages. I wonder what was the origin of the change from Þ to s in Quenya. I know it says 'phonetic taste and theory', but someone must have started it? Maybe the Noldor were influenced by the Valar? Or was it just part of a constant struggle to improve their own language?
You see, azalea, I can do a bit of speculations meself

But Galadriel, his daughter, "certainly used s in her own daily speech" because "opposition to Fëanor soon became a dominant motive with Galadriel".

He-he. Cruel, cruel Galadriel

[Artanis]

Originally posted by azalea
But orcs couldn't go because they were irredeemable, right?

Orcs were not irredeemable, at least that's what Tolkien says in letter #153 (my emphasis):

But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)

And then he goes on saying:

But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; ...

But if we agree that the origin of Orcs were Elves and/or Men, then we must assume they have spirits. I tend to believe that they would also be summoned to Mandos, but most of them would probably not choose to go.

[azalea]

Oh, thanks! That is interesting. I tried to find Letters at the library, but couldn't figure out which section it would be. I'll look again today.

[azalea]

I didn't find Letters, but I checked out a couple of more HoMEs.

So, doesn't anyone want to comment on my "mythology" bit? Are we as the reader to look at The Silmarillion as
1. A mythology of the elves
2. A mythology for us (the reader/ the world at large/ Britain)
3. A historical account written by an elf, and "translated" by Tolkien?
Or is it a combination of those?
I often wonder about what Tolkien would have thought about the reader's relationship w/ the book. Did he plan on eventually publishing it, or is that just something that Christopher decided to do? If he never intended for it to be published, I wonder how Tolkien himself saw the writings (as we see them in The Silm.) with regards to the catagories I posted above. Or have I missed a catagory? What are your thoughts?
I happen to ask this in this particular chapter because as I said (or maybe I didn't, I forget), to me in this chapter we get into the "meat" of the story -- we are no longer dealing primarily w/ the "supernatural" beings, the story has shifted to be that of the elves. And it is here that we meet a lot of the major players, so to speak. It is because of this that I started to think more about the "why" of the story -- knowing that it was supposed to have been written by the elves. Here the mood of the story shifts from a creation myth to a history (besides the story of Thingol and Melian, but that is jsut a short chapter focused on one thing), but he retains that mythology feel to a lesser degree throughout the book.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
He-he. Cruel, cruel Galadriel

And you wouldn't even give him a single strand of your gorgeous hair! Poor, poor Fëanor! That's what made him go bad!

from The Shibboleth of Fëanor, HoME 12
For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar or Valinor, were unfriends forever.

(one would think he would pay off one of Galadriel's maidservants to bring him her hairbrush or something!)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by azalea
I didn't find Letters, but I checked out a couple of more HoMEs.

So, doesn't anyone want to comment on my "mythology" bit? Are we as the reader to look at The Silmarillion as
1. A mythology of the elves
2. A mythology for us (the reader/ the world at large/ Britain)
3. A historical account written by an elf, and "translated" by Tolkien?

There are a couple places in HoME where JRRT says that it is the Numenorian mythology/legendarium/history about the Elves/Aman/creation/War of the great Jewels. I stronly suspect from the context of these passages that this was done (passing the basicly elvish history through the mortal Numenoreans) to be an explanation for any mythological elements in the stories that would be inconsistant with his emerging concept of a more "realistic" creation of Arda and Earth (see Myths Tranformed) that he was not going to edit or rewrite. There would be more sense to mythology and fiction creeping into the the stoires having gone through mortal hands over the ages, as opposed to having been kept in the care of immortal elvish lore masters.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And she gave Gimli three. In your face Feanor!

Because by accepting or tolerating their making

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. Could someone explain it to me?

[Rían]

"Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good."

I think it means: given that the Orcs exist, God must have accepted/tolerated their making (because life only comes from God), so they are a part of His creation, which is good (although by choice of people it can be corrupted).

JRRT said in another letter that he does not believe in absolute evil, because absolute evil must be zero - IOW, things like intelligence and creativity are good, although they can be used for bad purposes, so a being that is TOTALLY evil cannot even have things like intelligence, because intelligence is good. (whew, what a sentence - I hope that made sense )

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And you wouldn't even give him a single strand of your gorgeous hair! Poor, poor Fëanor! That's what made him go bad!

Behind every bad man stays a gorgeous woman Ooooh, the power ...

(one would think he would pay off one of Galadriel's maidservants to bring him her hairbrush or something!)

My hair does not fall off!

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by azalea
So, doesn't anyone want to comment on my "mythology" bit? Are we as the reader to look at The Silmarillion as
1. A mythology of the elves
2. A mythology for us (the reader/ the world at large/ Britain)
3. A historical account written by an elf, and "translated" by Tolkien?
Or is it a combination of those?
I often wonder about what Tolkien would have thought about the reader's relationship w/ the book. Did he plan on eventually publishing it, or is that just something that Christopher decided to do?

I think that Tolkien did intended to publish the book, at least right before LOTR's release. He wanted to publish The Silm. and LOTR as one book. After the refusal of his editors he accepted to publish only LOTR. After the success of LOTR he worked again in Silm., with hope of publishing it.

About mythology. Tolkien said that his first impulse was to create a mythology for Britain similar to the mythologies of other parts of the world (Norse mainly). He later abandoned that project and switched it into a "history" of the elves. Though the concept of history is perhaps not proper to be used with elves.

As you said, this history, written by the elves was supposed to have been translated from what Aelfwine brought from Eressëa (or from the Translations from the Elves in Red Book of Westmarch). However what we find in Silm is not only history. The myths are still there, though not in the main plot. What i like of those myths is how they reffer to "our" universal myths: the Creation, the demiurgic powers (the Valar), the origin of the evil, the golden age, the falling of Atlantis...

As Christopher says in Morgoth's Ring, he later repented of the way of some of those myths, because he thought them impossible in the elves. Then he fiddled with the idea of transforming the myths into mannish myths created in Numenor and later carried to Middle Earth and to us. But that was only an idea and it's not present in what we read in Silm.

i don't think i have made any sense. these are difficult questions

[azalea]

No, FM, that all makes perfect sense! Thanks, and thanks also, Lefty -- that was a good explanation.

Ooh, I can't wait to read about Galadriel dissing Feanor! It makes Gimli's gift seem all the more special!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I'm sorry, I don't understand this. Could someone explain it to me?

Perhaps it is clearer if I quote the paragraph from its beginning:

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (not the same as 'subcreation' as a term in criticism of art, though I tried to show allegorically how that might come to be taken up into Creation in some plane in my 'purgatorial' story Leaf by Niggle (Dublin Review 1945)) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be'real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)

IOW, subcreation is closely related to the concept of Free Will. For Free Will to exist, the God who provided this Free Will must also accept its results, even if they are seemingly bad. I use the word 'seemingly' because of the part I emphasized above.

Edit: Noticed RÃ*an's explanation just now, I think mine is slightly different from hers

[Attalus]

I can testify that among Tolkein fans in the 1960's (and there were many of us) it was well-known that JRRT was working on The Silmarillion, and we waited breathlessly for its publication. People who visited JRRT saw the great work in progress and reported exerpts in the various Tolkein newsletters (no Internet in those days, kids!) I shall never forget, finally in 1977 seeing stacks of the Sil at a bookshop at Northpark in Dallas, and how I clutched one to my bosom in my hurry to have it for my own, finally. I now know that JRRT could never get everything resolved, in his own mind (i.e., the origin of Orcs) and so it was incomplete at the time of his death. Christopher was of course aware of the huge, pent-up demand, and cobbled it together. Later, apparently, he repented of his haste and wished it had been dne more carefully.

[Earniel]

*pant, pant* I completely forgot to check for the next chapter!

By Fat middle :
however, i don't think the ships of Lorien were the same they use at Alqualonde: first, because the obvious differences between a river and the sea, and second because i don't see Galadriel as one who had learned all about shipbuilding when she was in Alqualonde, though, perhaps she could have inspired the idea of making Lorien ships as swans.

Other versions in the Unfinished Tales also give Celeborn a teleri-background. So he could have had the shipbuilding lore. (Then he would have been at least good for something ) I would like to think the Swanship in Lothlorien could have been a real Swanship from Alqualondë. A bit of romanticism I suppose. However that remains impossible due to the sad geographic obstacle of Rauros that lies between Lothlorien and the Sea. It's therefore quite unlikely that the ship in Lothlorien came from the sea. So it must have been built in situ.

By azalea :
One thing I forgot to comment on before was when I mentioned that no flowers had grown outside of Aman before the Pelori was cleft. That is odd, could you imagine a world w/ no flowers? Technically it couldn't be true since there were plants in ME, and plants must flower in order to reproduce (even grass has flowers, just very small ones). Hmmm.

Not necessarily. There was a time (and a good deal ago) I think during the dinosaur's reign that plants had no flowers. As there are still today plants that don't flower. However flowers are a succesful way of reproducing since they allow the seeds to be scattered further away through the motherplant. Therefore flowering plants became so wide spread. Still, it's odd trying to remember a time without flowers. Almost alien.

By Fat middle :
here we see the elves sorted by their proximity to the Light of Valinor. why? were the elves conceived by Eru to live with the Valar? are the moriquendi naturally worse than the calaquendi because they didn't response to the summons?

I think that normally the light should have been all over Middle-earth. Unfortunately that plan couldn't be carried out since the lamps were destroyed and the Valar took the light with them to Valinor. The Elves had little choice but to go and live with the Valar if they wished to increase their skill and wisdom.

By Artanis :
That thought have entered my mind too. But I've got nothing to support it, so it's merely speculations. And both the Dead Marshes faces and the Barrow-wights could have been Elves as well.

Weren't the barrow-wights spirits of evil under Sauron's command that took the abandonned Downs as their domain when the Dúnedain that lived there perished during the plague? I thought I read it somewhere in LoTR.

By RÃ*an:
(one would think he would pay off one of Galadriel's maidservants to bring him her hairbrush or something!)

LOL! I think he deemed the fact that she refused to give him a strand of hairs far worse that his not-possessing of it. Bit of a prideful fellow, that Fëanor. But if he did managed to nick her hairbrush , wouldn't he have had a hard time explaining just how he got by them? It would easily been seen that they were Galadriel's. You can't have the heir of the King of the Noldor confess that he broke into a woman's dressingroom to nick her brush, now can you? But I must admit it brings some very funny scenes to mind.

By RÃ*an:
I think it means: given that the Orcs exist, God must have accepted/tolerated their making (because life only comes from God), so they are a part of His creation, which is good (although by choice of people it can be corrupted).

I disagree. Since orcs were created from twisting elves, Morgoth fiendishly avoided having to create new life. They were already alive since they were elves once. They were just not that much elvish anymore after it.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Eärniel

I disagree. Since orcs were created from twisting elves, Morgoth fiendishly avoided having to create new life. They were already alive since they were elves once. They were just not that much elvish anymore after it.

Suffice it to say that there is more than a bit of controversy about the Orcs' ultimate derivation. There is a big thread at SF-Fandom about it.
EDIT to Add: Here is the link to the first page.

[Sister Golden Hair]

OK, I will post this here for the attention it needs. This project seems as though it may fall through. We are now at the due date for another chapter: (chapter 6) without someone to do it. azalea was kind enough to take over the last chapter, and post the intro, and did a great job. We seem to be faced with the same problem with chapter 6, which was originally to be introduced by Dunadan.

Anyone, that has any interest in posting the intro to this chapter, so that the project may continue, please post in the "Silmarillion reassignment" thread, that is stuck to the top of the main page.

Thank you.

[Earniel]

I never quite noticed but the sex ratio among Finwë's descendants is dreadfully screwed up. Only two women to what, sixteen men?! I know this is partly due to Tolkien needing a lot of heroes for the roles and fights he was planning. But dude, Galadriel and Aredhel must have been so fed up with their brothers and cousins at times.

Since I noticed in the previous chapters that the Valar weren't particularly concerned with the Elves that didn't complete the journey from Middle-earth, in this chapter you actually have two outright rebellious acts from Ossë and Ulmo that make sure more Elves do not reach Aman. Ossë outright convinced Elves to stay behind and Ulmo leaves Tol Eressëa right outside the boundaries of Aman.

That the Valar do not appear to take countermeasures does seem to reinforce the idea that while the Valar loved to have all the Eldar in Aman, their free will, their choice to do otherwise was that important to the Valar that they didn't intervene. I like that.

It does seem interesting that Ossë teaches both the Falathrim and the Teleri on Tol Eressëa the art of shipbuilding, but only to the Teleri does he give the strong-winged swans to pull those boats. Almost as if he is unwilling to give the Teleri the means to sail themselves for fear they would use it to leave his domain. Or was that just for the first journey? The Teleri would need boats they could steer themselves if they ever wanted to visit Tol Eressëa again and meet Ossë there.