The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
And another was to be the living memory of the Elder days in Middle-Earth.

That's a nice thought. And what better living memories are there than those that live for the duration of the world? It's very fitting.

But somehow it does seem that Elves got the bad side of the bargain. Humans seem to get the better part. But then again, don't parents usually tend to favour the youngest child? (I wonder what comments I will get from the mothers here on that one. )

[markedel]

The problem with analyzing this is that elves have an essential literary purpose-without them there is no mythos. The purpose of Tolkien's myth cycle is to create something coherant, ancient and truly mythlike. This effect is heightened if the stories are distanced by the use of superhuman creatures (as elves are) who eventually meet men, because it creates a further distance between us and the story. The Silmarillion is not simply the tale of a far off time, it is the chronicle of the Eldar, not mortals, and we are lucky to have a hold of it.

[Attalus]

Ah, the long time that we waited for the Sil to be published. I still remember how excited I was.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Attalus
Ah, the long time that we waited for the Sil to be published. I still remember how excited I was.

Hey!! You're from Texas too?! (Eryn Vorn is just outside of Houston. Or, at least it is now.)

[FrodoFriend]

*jumps into conversation*


I don't think the Elves were created for a "purpose" like teaching Men or fighting Melkor or anything. If that were true, we would also have to assign a purpose to Men and to all of Arda. For what purpose did Eru create the world?

IMO, existence has no purpose except to exist, to be, to bring forth beauty and happiness and other yummy things. I think Eru made the Elves "just because" - so that there would be something, and a very beautiful and wondrous thing it turned out to be. The same with Valar, Men, and the rest of the world. The question of why the Elves had to fade, however, remains.

There are some indications in quotes such as:

ere the Earth's goodness from the Elves they drew

(in reference to Men)

- that the Earth could not support more than one of the races. Which would explain why we only have Men today, although it doesn't explain why Eru would have created it like that in the first place. But who knows the mind of a God?

If we accept this as an explanation for the fading, one could say that Eru gave the Elves their time in Middle Earth, to be taken over by Men, so each has their turn. Elves and Men co-existed so that the Elder people could teach the Younger, but the ratio of strength was never equal - first the Elves were mightier, but the scales slowly tipped toward Men until Elves faded altogether.

So will Men fade someday? Will a new race appear to be taught, growing stronger and multiplying until they rule Arda and Men have disappeared?


P.S. Ruilen! You live in Eryn Vorn too? Which tree?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
I don't think the Elves were created for a "purpose" like teaching Men or fighting Melkor or anything. If that were true, we would also have to assign a purpose to Men and to all of Arda. For what purpose did Eru create the world

My opinion on this is: Eru created Men and Elves as a response to the discord of Melkor in the Music of the Ainur. Men were given the power to heal Arda from the marring of Melkor, that was their purpose.

When the music of the Ainur had ceased, Eru showed forth a vision of hte music they had just made, and the world was created because the Ainur desired what they saw in the vision to be real.

Nice jump, FrodoFriend.

[FrodoFriend]

Just trying to make a splash.

Is there a quote to back up the thing about Eru creating the Children in response to Melkor? So in part we owe our existence to the Great Enemy . . . although I don't think Men have been doing that great of a job of healing Arda . . .

Wait. Have I been talking as if I believe the Sil to be literal fact again?

[Rían]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Wait. Have I been talking as if I believe the Sil to be literal fact again?

I know - isn't that amazing how easy it is to slip into that mode?

IIRC, the theme of the elves was before the discord, and the theme of men was after the discord, but I'm fuzzy on it - I'll try to check. Also, I know near the end of his life, JRRT changed things around a bit in regard to the themes and other things (in Morgoth's Ring - where he experimented with the 'correct astronomy' model, which included the sun and moon BEFORE the two trees, etc.) I'll see what I can dig up, or does anyone else have refs?

[markedel]

Morgoth's ring I know, has bits on the "scientific mythology" specifically the astronomy, but it also has a bit on orcs and men, which may be a useful reference.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Is there a quote to back up the thing about Eru creating the Children in response to Melkor?

I don't think it says directly so anywhere, but that's how I read the Ainulindalë. It does say that the Children of Ilúvatar came with the third theme of the music, and Melkor's discord was there from the first theme. And then there is the Athrabeth, where the nature and gifts of Men is discussed, and where Finrod says this:.

This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Visions of the World!

This is of course Finrod's opinion and hope, but it's a nice belief and not unlikely.

[FrodoFriend]

Hmmm . . . so how much of this did the Valar know? Mandos apparently knew everything (or thought he did), and Manwe probably had a good idea, but what about the others? If they knew that they had to teach Elves to teach Men to heal the world, then it wouldn't have been selfishness to take the Elves away from Middle Earth to Valinor.

We were talking about why Elves were needed - for that matter, why were Men? Elves could easily have been created to heal Arda themselves, and you could dispense with the whole Younger People deal.

And where do the Ents come in? Were they simply created as tree shepherds, and have no larger role?

[Lizra]

Ahem........I'd like to think the Valar did not have to "teach" every little thing to the elves, and the elves did not have to "teach" men how to live their lives either. I like to think that Eru made his children (elves and men) with gifts of their own (intelligence, appreciation of beauty, work ethic, desire to be loved, survival instinct, etc). These qualities could help "heal" Arda. Though the Valar sang the music, the third theme's two musics were "utterly at variance". I struggle to decide if the theme that was loud and vain, endlessly repeated with little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes which seemed to drown the other music by the violence of it's own voice to be the music of "the children" (Both elves and men) , or of men only. (it sounds like men to me! ) The triumphant notes (of this music) were taken "by the other" {WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!!! are "the other" the valar taking from the children, or the elves taking from the men? } and woven into it's own solomn pattern. Anyway, is the third theme just the music of elves and men, or of Valor and "Elves and Men", together as children?

[Artanis]

Yes, I don't think Men needed to be teached how to heal Arda, it was inherent in them, because their spirits are not bound to the world like the spirits of the Elves. It was part of the gift of death from Ilúvatar, methinks.

Lizra, great way of interpreting the Music, which part was the Elves' theme and which part was Men? I've never thought of it that way. I would say the 'soft and sweet' was of the Elves, and the 'load and vain' and 'endlessly repeated' was of Men. 'The triumphant notes' I think were taken from the Elves' theme and wowen into Men's, and it could be pointing at the Elvish blood that were inserted into the race of Men by the union of Tour and Idril, Beren and Lúthien, and Aragorn and Arwen.

[Rían]

Wow, I guess we have some big differences of opinions here. I just assumed it was like this:

• Ilúvatar declares this incredibly beautiful theme to the Ainur ("and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur...")
• The voices of the Ainur began to "fashion the theme";
• Melkor starts the first discord in the music ("it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and gloroy of the part assigned to himself.")
• Ilúvatar starts a new and powerful theme in response to Melkor's discordant theme;
• Melkor's theme also gets stronger;
• Ilúvatar starts the third theme - unlike the others, starting soft, but unquenchable, and taking power and profundity

At this point, there were "two musics progressing at one time" that were "utterly at variance". One was "deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came." The other was the loud and vain and endlessly repeating one.

I always thought the beautiful one was all of the music that came from Ilúvatar - the original one, plus the 2 in response to Melkor, and all 3 blended together in an incredible symphony. I thought the vain and loud one was all the music that came from Melkor.

[Lizra]

Could be! That sounds good! Do the starts and stops have anything to do with the ages, or is really all about Melkor? (blea!)

(In the third theme) The "deep, wide and beautiful" music's beauty chiefly came from an immeasurable sorrow! (that's no fun! how does beauty come from sorrow! It doesn't for me. ) The loud violent music tried to drown the other. Now , I am confused again...."And it (violent music) essayed to drown the other (sad, beautiful) music by the violence of it's voice, but it seemed that it's most triumphant notes were taken by the other (sad beautiful) and woven into it's own solemn pattern."

So did Iluvatar somehow take the violent music's (Melkor's) best notes and put them in the beautiful music, just to show Melkor that "no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me", and also to show Melkor that he was just an instrument, not a maker?

It says the children (elves and men) came with the third theme, but none of the Ainur had a part in their making. What does this mean if the Ainur made the music? I guess I'm nit picking because it says (right after the "stolen" line given to Galadriel in FoTR movie!) "Yet some things there are that they (Ainiur) cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; ..... anyway, the themes having only to do with good and bad, not the children makes good sense Rian. ( evil has too big of a role in this tale, if you ask me! )

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I always thought the beautiful one was all of the music that came from Ilúvatar - the original one, plus the 2 in response to Melkor, and all 3 blended together in an incredible symphony. I thought the vain and loud one was all the music that came from Melkor.

Ooops, RÃ*an, I totally forgot Melkor's 'contribution' to the music, he was there too of course. Your theory makes more sense than mine.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Lizra
(In the third theme) The "deep, wide and beautiful" music's beauty chiefly came from an immeasurable sorrow! (that's no fun! how does beauty come from sorrow! It doesn't for me. )

I think because it's when faced with strong opposition and disaster that one can show his true strength. Think of Húrin, his was a tale of much sorrow but through it he became one of the most renowned warrior. He showed extraordinary resilience against Melkor. One might never have known what he had in him until he was tried. The same reasoning goes for the tale of Túrin and Nienor. It is a very sorrowful story but it's a very wel-liked tale too.

[Rían]

Artanis - I'm glad that made sense to you

Lizra - I think Eärniel gives a great example about beauty in sorrow, esp. with Húrin - his faithfulness in the face of torment is something that is beautiful; does that make sense? I think that sorrow does NOT automatically bring beauty; but it's a person's RESPONSES to sorrow that may be beautiful (or not...). Don't you think that Frodo's journey - his faithfulness, steadfastness, determination - is beautiful, although surrounded by great sorrow? Bilbo's story is cute and fun - Frodo's is magnificent and beautiful, and the beauty was brought out through the sorrow, and the beauty triumphed over the sorrow. Although Frodo was not left unscarred, still, the scars were beautiful in a sense, because of how he got them. Does that make sense?

In a this-world example , I was in the hospital for a month with pregnancy difficulties with child #2, and our friends and family did so many beautiful things in how they supported and helped and encouraged us - meals, phone calls, cards, taking care of our other son - love in action, which was beautiful.

[Lizra]

Yes, I understand how you can see "some" beauty in sorrow, (if you are forced to, by unfortunate circumstance) but I prefer regular, plain and simple beauty myself. I feel the "beauty in sorrow" is more of a second generation type thing, looking for the silver lining type of beauty . To have the "main theme" of the last melody come "cheifly from an immeasurable sorrow" is frankly, "over the top" for me! (It also makes me angry! ) As a casual observer, I want to say Eru erred in giving Melkor so much. (IMO) It does not make me happy! Of course it makes for an unbeleivably moving story, but I am beginning to understand why I have often felt that The Hobbit was my favorite story! I have had too much of that "sorrowful beauty" in my life, and I don't like it!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, I understand how you can see "some" beauty in sorrow, (if you are forced to, by unfortunate circumstance) but I prefer regular, plain and simple beauty myself. I feel the "beauty in sorrow" is more of a second generation type thing, looking for the silver lining type of beauty . To have the "main theme" of the last melody come "cheifly from an immeasurable sorrow" is frankly, "over the top" for me! (It also makes me angry! ) As a casual observer, I want to say Eru erred in giving Melkor so much. (IMO) It does not make me happy! Of course it makes for an unbeleivably moving story, but I am beginning to understand why I have often felt that The Hobbit was my favorite story! I have had too much of that "sorrowful beauty" in my life, and I don't like it!

If you've ever listened to music that sounds sorrowful, you could understand that there is beauty in the sound of it. An emotional outpouring. I've experienced sorrow (profoundly) in my days (people die, people leave, rejection, unfulfilled dreams, etc.), we all either have or will experience all of these in our lives. Yet, I can still say what I've said. It doesn't make me depressed, just experienced. In the tale, it is the music created by the Ainur that moves the listener. The music has that power.

It is funny that The Hobbit was your favorite. It was my least favorite of the stories.