The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor

[Dunadan]

All good stuff.

Does anyone else agree that this chapter had Tolkien throwing in a lot more ambiguities in general? Is that a deliberate act to represent how the world was getting more complicated and uncertain?

cheers

d.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
If the Elves truly belonged in Middle-earth and not in Valinor, why did they fade then?

They were meant to fade, to make way for the dominion of Men. Letter #131:

The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed.

Perhaps the Elves going to Valinor was not in the original 'plan'. But when it happened, it was turned to something good. The Noldor returned, and met the Edain, and were more noble and gifted teachers than they otherwise would have been.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Does anyone else agree that this chapter had Tolkien throwing in a lot more ambiguities in general?

Perhaps it was CRT who didn't get things straight all the time. The mythology was rewritten several times. Scholars in the HoME-series would know more ...

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think that only the Elves who remained in M-E faded. Though, in Morgoth's Ring, it is written that All Elves, even of Aman, will become spirits, it was I belive, crossed out. In early versions, (BoLT) there were faded Elves all over the place, only visible to some human people.

[Artanis]

There's another thing that bugs me: The Valar didn't make war against Sauron until the Elves had awoke, because they didn't know where the Elves would come, and they were afraid of damaging the land too much. But when they finally did go to war, they seemed to have had no such concern for the Followers, Men, and their place of awakening.

Any thoughts?

[Sister Golden Hair]

But what if they had done nothing at all?

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
But what if they had done nothing at all?

well then Melkor would of come among them and seduced them easily. Easily because how can you know what evil is till you have met good?

Of course this leads to bigger issues going back to a previous post about bthe origional plan. Was it in the plan that melkor would be evil was it in the origional plan for the valar to remove from middle earth?

here is not the time or place to do that really but the point is the main problem was the valar had removed to valinor so to teach the elves they had to bring them there.

At the time before the elves came i believe that the valar were more concerned with making rather than healing. was it yavanna that returned occasionally to undo some of the hurt of melkor?

IMHO i think the valar were right to bring the elves to valinor for the simple reasons melkor would still escaped from them and then returned to torment the elves. Plus if they had handled Feanor a bit better a lot of suffering could of been avoided.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sween
well then Melkor would of come among them and seduced them easily. Easily because how can you know what evil is till you have met good?

Of course this leads to bigger issues going back to a previous post about bthe origional plan. Was it in the plan that melkor would be evil was it in the origional plan for the valar to remove from middle earth?

here is not the time or place to do that really but the point is the main problem was the valar had removed to valinor so to teach the elves they had to bring them there.

At the time before the elves came i believe that the valar were more concerned with making rather than healing. was it yavanna that returned occasionally to undo some of the hurt of melkor?

IMHO i think the valar were right to bring the elves to valinor for the simple reasons melkor would still escaped from them and then returned to torment the elves. Plus if they had handled Feanor a bit better a lot of suffering could of been avoided.

I don't think that the Valar were to blame for Morgoth's marring of the world. At the time it says there was little they could do, or they didn't know that he was at work again.

From the published Silmarillion:

Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding place. But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared; and he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps. In the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.

Thus ended the Spring of Arda. The dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and they had no abiding place upon the face of the Earth. Therefore they departed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, the westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea, that is called by the Elves Ekkaia, encircling the Kingdom of Arda. How wide is that sea none know but the Valar; and beyond it are the Walls of the Night. But the east shores of Aman were the uttermost end of Belegaer, the Great Sea at the West; and since Melkor was returned to Middle-earth and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the sea they raised the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon Earth. And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height upon whose summit Manwë set his throne. Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and ElerrÃ*na Crowned with Stars, and many names beside; but the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos. From their halls upon Taniquetil Manwë and Varda could look out across the Earth even into the furthest East.

[Artanis]

Sister Golden Hair
But what if they had done nothing at all?

The Valar were right in making war against Melkor, but they should have done so before. I just find it strange that they were concerned about destroying the place of awakening for the Elves, but not for Men.

Sween
IMHO i think the valar were right to bring the elves to valinor for the simple reasons melkor would still escaped from them and then returned to torment the elves. Plus if they had handled Feanor a bit better a lot of suffering could of been avoided.

But if all Elves had departed to Valinor, there would have been none left to meet Men in Middle-Earth. That would have been sad. And if Melkor should escape from the Valar, who should protect Men against him, if both Valar and Elves were in Aman?

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Valar were right in making war against Melkor, but they should have done so before. I just find it strange that they were concerned about destroying the place of awakening for the Elves, but not for Men.

Well, although they knew of the coming of the Second Born, I think the Elves being first and knowing that they could awake at any time after the world was fashioned was a more pressing concern to them. It was just more immediate. They knew that Men would not be along for a while yet.

[Ruinel]

Artanis,
I don't know where in the book it states that the Elves were afraid of the water. So, I can not answer your question pertaining to that.

Melkor made the Orcs, the Dragons, and the Balrogs. Orcs were bred from the Elves that fled Orome when he came to lead them from the east across Arda to Valinor. (They had been made afraid by Melkor/Morgoth's lies about the Valar.) Melkor/Morgoth could not make anything beautiful, so he made things deliberately fell to mock the making of the Children of Iluvitar.

I do not remember what Dragons and Balrogs were made from.

[Artanis]

Hello Ruinel, and welcome!

The Balrogs were Maiar, angelic spirits created by Eru himself. I'm not sure what the Dragons were, I suppose they could have been Maiar as well.

[Ruinel]

Artanis,
Where did you read that balrogs were Maiar? (curious)

[Artanis]

From the Silmarillion, Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor:

But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.

And from the Silmarillion, Valaquenta:

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

[Ruinel]

Wow! I had forgotten all about that (the Maiar that were corrupted by Melkor)! Thanks for reminding me.

[azalea]

Artanis, thanks for that quote from Letters about the fading. I have seen fading discussed before, but for some reason, it clicked w/ me this time. So I can now see the ULTIMATE purpose of taking the elves to Valinor. It was to educate them, so that their knowledge could then pass on to men. This seems like a logical divine plan, but then it led me to another question: why not skip elves and just have men? That way, the learning wouldn't be secondhand. Since men were to have the ultimate dominion (as evidenced by the fading), why have the elves awaken at all? (Not that I don't like elves, but I just wonder what the speculation is on this).

[Rían]

I think that the elves were a beautiful and worthwhile creation in themselves, and well worth making from that angle alone. I guess one of their purposes was to teach men, but they had many others. And maybe since they are closer in power to men (unlike the Ainur), then men could feel more akin to them and learn better from them.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by azalea
This seems like a logical divine plan, but then it led me to another question: why not skip elves and just have men? That way, the learning wouldn't be secondhand. Since men were to have the ultimate dominion (as evidenced by the fading), why have the elves awaken at all? (Not that I don't like elves, but I just wonder what the speculation is on this).

And deny the presence of Elves to Men? A bit cruel perhaps. Elves would not only have been there to teach Men, but perhaps also to be an example to them. Quite possibly Elves were to be intermediares between Valar and Men. Elves had skills that Men did not possess and might not be able to possess. Granted, the Elves learned nearly much from the Valar but I doubt that Men, even when tutored by the Valar could reach the level of magic and arts that the Elves possessed. Elves were the 'big sisters and brothers' to Men. Someone Men could look up to, go to for councel or comfort, someone who could fill them with wonder by the tales they had to tell, someone to inspire them to greater things, ect....

Elves also had a worth of their own. Saying that Elves were really not needed is like saying: "I already have one child that shall be the heir of all my possessions, I don't need another child." What kind of father would Ilúvater be if he reasoned like that.

[azalea]

Thanks for both of your answers. They certainly make sense, and I of course am glad that there were elves. But I could still see a world where men were made with some of the same traits elves had, and so eliminating the need for them. I guess their literary purpose is to serve as "perfect humans," as others have mentioned (somewhere). They also add depth, richness, etc. to the mythology. But it is sad that they were only temporary residents of ME, and that's what led me to that question. Why create something so wonderful just to take them away? I guess having men and elves co-exist when "the time of man" had come would lead to a lot of strife. It's still sad, though.

[Artanis]

One of the chief purposes of the Elves was to fight Melkor, I think. And another was to be the living memory of the Elder days in Middle-Earth.