The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor

[Dunadan]

Hello

Just a quick question for now:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrow-dim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.

(quoted above by Maedhros from The War of the Jewels)

Sun?? I thought that there was only starlight when the Elves woke. Correct me if I'm wrong...

cheers

d.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Sun?? I thought that there was only starlight when the Elves woke. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Um - IIRC, in 'Myths transformed', CRT explains how JRRT experimented with changing the cosmology and the creation myth in his later days. He did not succeed, but in the new cosmology the sun and the moon was not made from the fruits of Telperion and Laurelin, but were present from the very beginning of Arda.

I have no idea whether that quote is related to Myths transformed, though. But quick questions deserve quick answers

[Dunadan]

Thanks for that. Let's assume that the Sil takes precedence for now.

I too am confused by the ambivalent attitude of the Valar towards the Elves. It seems at odds with their "we love all of Arda" personae in earlier chapters. However, I think this chapter starts to set out the limitations of their earthly forms a bit more clearly (physical, mental and moral), while at the same time muddying the waters as to what's to come.

Clearly,

the Vision of Iluvatar was brief and soon taken away

which accounts for the fact that no-one knew where or when the Elves would appear, or whether they'd have six fingers or just one big middle one. However, you'd have thought it would make them all the more vigilant. I agree with pretty much what you've all said re: selfishness and torpor. Yavanna, Ulmo and Tulkas are cool; the rest are just up themselves.

Previously, I'd thought that all the elves' troubles could be traced to Feanor, but I've now changed my mind. The pivotal moment is where the Valar decree that they are to be summoned to Aman; after that, the elves have no free will.

Which brings me to my second point: muddy waters. What do you think about Mandos saying:

So it is doomed.

?
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."?

The answer goes back to the issue of free will. Have the valar robbed them of it, or did they never have it in the first place? Maybe that's what the Valar couldn't get their heads around: they were afraid of free will.

More generally, in this chapter we're seeing the language change to one of ambiguity. Stuff like:

..the shapes of the lands and the seas have been remade...
...as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforeseen...
But of those .. ensnared by Melkor little is known for certainty.
Aule was grieved, foreboding the hurts of the world

etc etc., not to mention the spawning of the numerous taxonomies of elf kindreds. Either Tolkien is leaving lots of doors open for himself for later stories, or he's showing how the pace of change in the world was overtaking the Valar's ability to understand it. Or maybe not. What do others think?

cheers

d.

[azalea]

Can Iluvatar be wrong? No, I certainly don't think so. But the big question is Were the Valar's actions part of his plan, or was it his plan to let them act as they would in governing Arda? He would either have orchestrated the whole thing beforehand (orchestrated, get it?) or he would have set things up and let the chips fall where they may based on the actions of the Valar (aside from deciding where and when the children would awake -- and had he already decided where and when, or did he decide later based on what was happening?)
I tend to think he foresaw what would happen, and since it was all part of his greater plan, what the Valar did became incidental (in a larger sense, not meaning to make their actions sound unimportant), since he was in charge anyway. Thus, I think the Valar were not acting out any preordained plan, but were acting of their own freewill, trying to govern as they felt Eru would want it, but then acting somewhat contrary to his plan it would seem ("okay, things are getting messed up, let's jump ship") I liken it to the statement in the Ainulindale (?) that although Melkor "messed up" the music, it would only serve to further Iluvaltar's own plan. Likewise, the actions of the Valar could not ultimately be "wrong," because what ever course of action they took and whatever events were set in motion as a result would always lead back to the right "path."
I guess that means there is no "should have" necessary, just as Gandalf counseled Frodo re: Bilbo's pity of Gollum (it always seems to lead back to LotR for me! ).

What was the question again?

[Lefty Scaevola]

1. In myths transformed JRRT clarified that to a substantial extent before this time the Valar were kept out of ME by the power of Melkor, and their overestimation of that power, and that they were suprised that their vicotry over Melkor was not much more difficult, and were suprised at how much Kmelkor had dissapated his power.


As to Imin, Tatya, & Enel, the first Elves, they may have been mythological, or may have perished during Melkors predations. In any case the Elves had little leadership structure at or before this time, being barely tribal, and the strong personalities of Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were able to organized them. I suspect many of the non finwean Noldor princes, like Glofindal, Gulin, Gwindor, may have the status in part by claimed descent from Tatya.

[Lefty Scaevola]

3. some of these dark monster may have been non reproductive 'mules' and thus died out, others may have lacked enough self preservation untinct (being bred deliberately for war) or luck to have hidden and survied the war in breeding populations.

[Maedhros]

Likewise, the actions of the Valar could not ultimately be "wrong," because what ever course of action they took and whatever events were set in motion as a result would always lead back to the right "path."

Like the rebellion of Fëanor that in the end was the best thing for Arda.

[azalea]

Maedhros, you are so cryptic! I can't tell if you're actually supporting what I'm saying or being sarcastic!
Let's assume you're being sarcastic, and your implication is that Feanor's rebellion (getting ahead of ourselves, but oh, well) was the cause of all future troubles in ME. I meant that ULTIMATELY Iluvatar's plan must be adhered to, so the whole Feanor fiasco and all that it caused STILL only led back to what Iluvatar envisioned, I presume with manipulation from him along the way. It is possible that there were an infinite number of possible "looks" to the path to the final outcome (whatever that may be), and that the Feanor freak out, etc., was just the "look of the path" that ended up taking place. There were perhaps more desirable ways it could have looked, and I certainly don't understand why Iluvatar would have allowed all of the suffering of innocents that took place as a result of this, but neither do I understand his allowing Melkor reign over Arda as he did, among other things. But I think his nature as Tolkien wrote him is omnipotent but allowing the free will of all. However, as all are his creation, any action they take will lead back to him and his music in the end.
Am I clear?

[Artanis]

azalea, let's assume Maedhros is not sarcastic (I don't think he is btw), then I agree with him. Fëanor's rebellion caused the Noldor to return to Middle-Earth, and in the long years after they were the chief enemies of Melkor, restraining his power and postponing his evil dominance, whence the Valar sat in their ivory towers doing nothing. If you think of it, the rebellion could by subtle ways have been a part of Ilúvatar's design, either original or adapted, to bring some of the Elves back to Middle-Earth, from where they never should have left in the first place.

Lefty Scaevola, good point about the tribal structure of the Elves' community.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."?

Indeed a good question. I tend to believe the latter, because as you said, it is a question of whether there exists such a thing as free will or not.

[Dunadan]

I agree. In which case, is this the moment at which the Valar attempt to deprive the Elves of their free will? And again, if so, who can blame Feanor for giving them the vickies and going back to ME?

Why wouldn't they be happy just to let them roam freely once Melkor was chained? Given what Melian achieved in Doriath, a few more of the Ainur going amongst the Elves would have helped them to more than repair the damage he'd caused.

Another ambiguous thing which interests me is the reference to the "whispers" which Melkor sent abroad against the Valar. How?? I thought the Elves were the first (non-Ainur) to make words..

cheers

d.

[Maedhros]

Let's assume you're being sarcastic

How could you azalea?
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.

This was my meaning.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."?

I think there's a third option. I don't think that it has always been doomed that way (funny about the "pompous portentious comment!") - your option 1. I don't think that the decision "doomed" the elves, either, in the sense of "uh oh, they're really in trouble now!" (which is I think what you meant) - your option 2.

Rather, I think it's kind of a "so be it" comment that means "well, this was a pretty important subject, and we've talked a lot about it, and now we've come to a final decision, although some may disagree, to summon the Elves to Valinor. So be it - let the chips fall where they may." IOW, I think 'doom' was meant in the 'decree' sense of the word.

[Artanis]

Dunadan, I'm going to agree with RÃ*an now , on the meaning of the word 'doomed'. My answer was clearly ambiguous, and perhaps you read me wrong. I was just stating that I believe free will do always exist, and nothing is completely outlaid in advance.

Originally posted by Dunadan
Why wouldn't they be happy just to let them roam freely once Melkor was chained? Given what Melian achieved in Doriath, a few more of the Ainur going amongst the Elves would have helped them to more than repair the damage he'd caused.

I agree completely.

Originally posted by Dunadan
Another ambiguous thing which interests me is the reference to the "whispers" which Melkor sent abroad against the Valar. How?? I thought the Elves were the first (non-Ainur) to make words..

The Elves just thought they were the first to make words, because they hadn't yet met the Valar:

Themselves they named the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think there's a third option. I don't think that it has always been doomed that way (funny about the "pompous portentious comment!") - your option 1. I don't think that the decision "doomed" the elves, either, in the sense of "uh oh, they're really in trouble now!" (which is I think what you meant) - your option 2.

Rather, I think it's kind of a "so be it" comment that means "well, this was a pretty important subject, and we've talked a lot about it, and now we've come to a final decision, although some may disagree, to summon the Elves to Valinor. So be it - let the chips fall where they may." IOW, I think 'doom' was meant in the 'decree' sense of the word.

I didn't mean "doom" as in Private Fraser out of Dad's Army ("we're all dooooomed, I tell you, dooooomed!"), I meant doom as in fate, good or bad, which seems the same as what you said in option 3.

The thing is, did they change the fates of the Elves by doing so? Were the elves thus consigned to dwindle into obscurity unless they responded to the summons?

It's clear that the elves still retained free will, but that the Valar didn't understand it, or else they wouldn't have tried to remove it. It also seems that the elves were made to pay for it in spades throughout the ages that followed.

cheers

d.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Maedhros
How could you azalea?

Now I feel all guilty! I'm sorry! I guess that's why I made the disclaimer that I don't know much, but wanted to post anyway. I've never read Myths Transformed, and haven't even finished The Silm, so at the point where I am in the book it seems like the worst thing that could have happened: the slaughter and sundering of so many all because of a headstrong and misguided elf, and the cause of strife between the elves,which weakens them against Morgoth, IMO. I hadn't thought of it in the way it is presented in the quote you gave! Consider me educated.

That's why I thought you might have been sarcastic, because to me it seemed to bring "doom" to ME: that is a main cause of the Valar going with an even more "hands off" approach. I just couldn't tell one way or the other if you were supporting my post, so I took the default mode of giving further opinion to back it up. I was going to say, "If you weren't, then just ignore the above defense. ," but I forgot. Does that clear it up? Am I forgiven? I will not doubt your intentions again.

Dunadan, I agree with what you just said.

[Rían]

Now we're getting into that tricky area of free will again - difficult concept to talk about...

Originally posted by Dunadan
[B]I didn't mean "doom" as in Private Fraser out of Dad's Army ("we're all dooooomed, I tell you, dooooomed!"), I meant doom as in fate, good or bad, which seems the same as what you said in option 3.

Funny quote! "dooooooomed!" I don't know the show you're talking about, but I can picture it But I still see a slight distinction between what you say is "fate, good or bad", and "decree". I could be wrong (been there, done that!) but to me fate is more ... oh, I suppose definite. Now the decree was that the Valar would try to get the Eldar to come to Valinor. At this point, there is nothing really fated for the Elves. They might refuse or they might come (actually, they did some of each). But what actually will happen as a result of the doom/decree of the Authorities is up to the free will choices of the Elves.

The thing is, did they change the fates of the Elves by doing so? Were the elves thus consigned to dwindle into obscurity unless they responded to the summons?

They did change it, I think, but only in the sense of any decision changing someone's fate. I doubt if the elves would have dwindled into obscurity either way, because I think whatever the decision would have been about Valinor, the elves in themselves had an inherent greatness (relative to the other parts of creation, such as animals) given to them by Ilúvatar, that would prevent them from being obscure anywhere they went. Now perhaps their history would have been less sorrowful, though, had they not gone, but who knows? But I think they would NOT have been obscure.

It's clear that the elves still retained free will, but that the Valar didn't understand it, or else they wouldn't have tried to remove it. It also seems that the elves were made to pay for it in spades throughout the ages that followed.

But they never tried to remove the Elves' free will, IMO, they just tried to persuade - IOW, the Valar didn't hog-tie the elves and cart them over to Valinor. Many elves refused the summons out of their own free-will choice, and the Valar let them stay. And I think that how they paid for it throughout the ages had nothing to do with the Valar, it was the consequences of their individual, daily free-will choices.

And somewhere, I can't remember where, it says that those that went to Valinor were greater than those that didn't, and that was because of their contact with the Valar; so that is definitely a good that was gained.

[Attalus]

I will note that JRRT used "doom" both to mean "disaster" and "destiny". Remember in Faramir's dream, the Voice says that "Doom is near at hand." Boromir reads it as "disaster" and is reprimanded by Gandalf. "The words were not "the doom of Minas Tirith." I.e., the older, and to me, the far more interesting meaning of the word, "predestined outcome." IMHO, if he had sait, "So, they are doomed," it would have meant that the elves were destined for disaster, that what they were doing would be evil for the elves. But, he said, "It is doomed," akin to Gandalf's "That is the doom we must deem." That seemed to me to mean that "it was inevitable."

Oh, and I will be a member of any party that gets together to watch Tulkas put a can of whup-ass on Melkor.

Good discussion.

[Maedhros]

aaa

[Earniel]

Good observation Eärniel The Moriquendi were happier in Middle-Earth, weren't they?

Thank you Artanis. They did seem to be a lot happier. But going further on the thought that the Elves belonged in Middle-earth, I stumbled on something else for which of yet I don't have any explanation: the fading.

If the Elves truly belonged in Middle-earth and not in Valinor, why did they fade then? Even the moriquendi would in time fade and become 'present and yet remote' to Men. (or so I remember, do correct me when I'm wrong) It doesn't seem logical. Or is it perhaps an after-effect from the original mistake of bringing the Elves to Valinor? So that by bringing them to Valinor they could never truly belong to Middle-earth anymore, even when they did return there? Any ideas on the connection?

Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."?

Doomed is a word of many meanings. It is difficult to see in what meaning Mandos used it. Perhaps that's why it puzzled the others so much that they didn't understand it when he said it. In any case, personally, I prefer RÃ*an's 'So be it'-interpretation.

The answer goes back to the issue of free will. Have the valar robbed them of it, or did they never have it in the first place? Maybe that's what the Valar couldn't get their heads around: they were afraid of free will.

I don't think the Valar were afraid of free will, they had much of it themselves. I think that the Elves did have free will in Valinor, but under a certain set of rules, much like in land and under any government.

I don't think the Valar actually intended to rob the Elves of free will, but saw them more as children who are unfit to choose certain things for themselves. In the beginning the Elves may indeed have been much like that, after all they learned much in Valinor. I guess the Valar (much as many parents) just didn't understand the Elves enough to know that at one point they would be grown and want to decide things for their own, for good or for bad. In such a situation the rules of the Valar may have seemed more and more restrictive even if this was not the intention of the Valar.