The Silmarillion:Valaquenta

[Rían]

Originally posted by Dunadan
I seem to recall that not all of the Ainur chose to enter Arda. Is there any info in the secondary sources such as HOME about these? If they were involved in the Music, their personalities ought to be reflected in Arda.

You are correct; I replied to this a few days ago, but that was one of the posts that fell into the Internet Black Hole a few days ago, so here it is again:

from the Sil, Ainulindalë:
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

It reminds me of how in C.S. Lewis' (Tolkien's good friend) Space Trilogy the angelic beings are associated with different planets. Also, how the concepts of love and commitment go together; Ilúvatar didn't just say "well, just stick around Arda until you get tired of it, and then you can come back". They are bound to it forever; until the end.

[Wayfarer]

I like to think that most phenomenon in middle earth can be explained scientifically-that is, through physical or metaphysical rules which can be known and applied to the world.

It's interesting that, if you use this approach, quite a bit of the valar's behavior can be explained using very few principles.

The valar's voluntary imprisonment within ea, melkor's bonding himself to the earth, and the way ulmo practically never leaves water, all point to the valar being somehow tied to the objects in which they have placed their power.

Melkor had poured a great deal of himself into the earth, 'morgoth's ring'. This is the most likely reason why he lost his power in the upper airs.
And Ulmo, who was the (mostly) undisputed master of water, is only shown communicating with humans and elves through a body of water. It's almost as if he couldn't operate when removed from his element.

I think that the investment of power can also be used to explain why in certain instances valar or maiar became attached to a certain body.

Melkor, again, as an example, was permanantly scarred by several different wounds. Why couldn't he heal? Or the way sauron, after his first body was destroyed, couldn't make himself pretty anymore.

If i am correct, then this is simply an outgrowth of the energy investment principle. I think that, when an ainur becomes incarnate, they must literally create a body for themselves, by turning energy into matter. And since a little bit of matter is equal to a whole lot of energy, this would be a huge expenditure. So once the body is harmed or destroyed, there isn't any reserve power to fix it or make a new one, and there's no way of getting back the power that's been invested.

[Wayfarer]

Yess!

Stopped you all cold, didn't I? ]: )

[Earniel]

Fne, you just wait until friday when I'm rid of those two presentations.

[Rían]

I'm still in shock over you saying (in another thread) that Legolas' dad had dark hair! Go back and read your Hobbit, young man!! *pelts Wayfarer with lembas*

[Wayfarer]

*/eats lembas for breakfast.

[Rían]

You're welcome!

[Wayfarer]

*/rubs stomach.

Got any more?

[Artanis]

Now, now, Wayfarer. *waves finger* We don't want you to behave like Pip, do we?

[Rían]

Do we sound like a couple of moms or what, Artanis!

BTW, Wayfarer, is your room cleaned up and your homework finished?

[Wayfarer]

No, and No.

You sure there's not any more? I hear lembas goes good with eggnog.

[Sister Golden Hair]

No more, it will spoil your appetite.

And if you all don't get back on topic, the granny is going to give you all a spanking.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
If i am correct, then this is simply an outgrowth of the energy investment principle. I think that, when an ainur becomes incarnate, they must literally create a body for themselves, by turning energy into matter. And since a little bit of matter is equal to a whole lot of energy, this would be a huge expenditure. So once the body is harmed or destroyed, there isn't any reserve power to fix it or make a new one, and there's no way of getting back the power that's been invested.

I'm not so sure. I found a quote in the sil concerning Yavanna:

In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from its branches there spills a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwë spoke in its leaves.

This implies that she could take other shapes relatively easy. On the other hand none of her shapes was ever hurt so your theory still stands, I guess. Personally I think the fact that Morgoth and Sauron couldn't 'repear' their shapes was because they had grown too attached to it. Morgoth and Sauron both wanted to control, to subdue (no that's not the right word... *runs to dictionnary*) subject (?) things. They were pretty materialistic, a trait the other Valar seemingly didn't share that much. Both dark lords poured more of themselves into their fysical form, unlike the other Valar who wore it more like rainment. At least that's the impression I got.

[Wayfarer]

That's the impression I got as well.

[Dunadan]

At the risk of going off-topic, what did people think of the portrayal of Gandalf's resurrection in TTT?

I'd always imagined this was the closest we'd get in Tolkien's own writing to a description of what happens when a Maia loses its material body. I was always under the impression that he returned to the Halls of Mandos, "but was sent back for a while", which would counter the suggestion that the Ainur are tied to a specific body, or of losing power to create a new one. Olorin came back more powerful, remember.

I liked the image of the stars in his eyes, but then it went all Dr Who on us. A few glimpses of Valinor wouldn't have gone amiss

cheers, and happy xmas

(I'm off till 6th Jan! Beezer holiday...)

d.

[Rían]

I'll have to see the movie again, I can't remember much about Gandalf, I was so upset about the icky Theoden!!

But here's a bit from "Letters of JRR Tolkien":

from letter #156
Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'. ...... Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success. That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.......Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater.

[Rían]

Well, our 3 weeks of "Valaquenta" are just about done - thanks, everyone, for your enjoyable and insightful posts. Unless there are any last-minute comments, I'll be seeing you all in the next chapter thread

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well done everyone. Artanis will be posting her chapter early tomorrow.

[Earniel]

Yes, this was a very interesting discussion. I'm having high hopes for the other chapters.

[Earniel]

Heh, rereading this thread has been a nice blast from the past. I find that I still think about the Valar much the same way as I did a good fifteen years ago.

But there are some things in this chapter that I think I missed earlier. At least, they feel like a new discovery to me now.

A first one is that while many of the Valar (and Maiar) have clearly been inspired by our Earth's mythologies. (There's a sky god, a sea god and an earth god as the three most powerful beings. There is a vegetation goddess, a divine hunter, a weaver of fates, a god for the dead asssociated with a god for sleep... etc)

There are a few figures that do not have such clear parallels that I can find. Varda is one. While our mythologies and cultures often have light gods and goddesses, it is rarer to have one mostly associated with stars and at the same time so powerful. The same goes for Nienna, who is equally counted among the nine most powerful Valar, and yet her field is mourning. This is interesting and do colour Tolkien's pantheon distinctly.

A second realisation concerns the Maiar, whose number and names are mostly unknown to the Children of Ilúvatar because they appeared so little to them. This seem to indicate there may have been a sufficient number and that many have been journeying all over the place from Aman to the rest of Arda and that they were free to do so. But that they just didn't show themselves to the Children or made their name and nature known. And just because the Children didn't know them, their stories have not been recorded. Even of Olorin it is said that he wandered among the Elves unseen or in their shape. Which made me wonder, did Olorin do that only in Aman or did he too journey to Arda under Starlight, perhaps even guiding the just awakened Eldar to Aman? How many Maiar were there in Arda, perhaps even opposing Melkor there, that we do not know of? How often did they meddle with the Children without their knowing? There's plenty of fanfic fodder here, I think.

A last one is that that Balrogs were not among Morgoth's servants initially, but ones he had to tempt with 'lies and treacherous gifts'. I wonder what those gifts and lies had been because whatever they were, the Balrogs never seemed to waver in their allegiance with Melkor after their initial deflection.

They don't seem to have been offered the same shot at redemption as Melkor was either, despite being fairly powerful servants.

And I don't recall it being mentioned but were the Balrogs also servants of Aulë initially? If so those seem to be disproportionally inclined to rebellion. Sauron was one, and Saruman likely too. I wonder whether there is a parallel to the House of the Mole in Gondolin, associated with the earth's riches, mining and metallurgy whose treachery (or at least Maeglin's, who was its lord) also led to the fall of Gondolin.

Now that I type this, I'm inclined to think it is, and that it perhaps all fits in an even broader theme: as a recurrent metaphor for Tolkien's dislike of the 'Dark Satanic Mills' destroying the peaceful green England? Certainly it recalls again Saruman's destructive love of machines and manufacture that marred the Shire in LoTR.