The Silmarillion:Valaquenta

[Earniel]

*comes running and falls on the ground of the thread* Finally I made it! Weekend! Moot-time! *looks at clock: 1.17 passed midnight* Ergl... I'll post tomorrow...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Ergl...

Ergl? *looks up "Ergl" in Quenya dictionary* oh, ok ..

from Quenya dictionary
"Ergl" (ERG-l) - from "er", 'one, alone', as in "Erebor", the lonely mountain; and "gil", 'star', as in Gil-galad: a primitive Elvish exclamation, usually spoken by a famous Elvish personage, when feeling like he is going to have to go somewhere alone.

Oh, that's right, that's like in Feanor's impassioned speech to the Noldor:

from the Sil, "Of the Flight of the Noldor" (um, well, mostly a direct quote...) :
"Shall we mourn here deedless for ever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea? Ergl! Or shall we return to our home! ... Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!"

[MasterMothra]

im not sure if morgoth was paired with any element of earth such as wind, water etc. i would think morgoth had a little of all these elements. in the sil it says, " in the powers and knowledge of all the other valar he had part." that is probably why he was the mightiest of the ainur.

there arent too many of the valar that i liked. most of them seemed like mindless robotic servants of illuvatar. i liked ulmo and aule, they seemed to seperate themselves from the pack. tulkas was rather boring, all brawn and no brains, imagine that.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
im not sure if morgoth was paired with any element of earth such as wind, water etc.

I seem to remember in BOLT 1 (or was that 2?) that he was linked with ice and fire, but I'm not too sure on that one. (I see Rian's already commented on this. )

One thing I've found interesting is Morgoth's (almost) obsession with not being able to fly in BOLT. Does this surface at any time in the Sil? (I've only read it once, and my memory isn't that great, so...) Anyway, the reason I brought it up, is that it's sorta interesting how some of the other valar (working from memory here) had dominance over the 'air' component, and Morgoth couldn't - and yet he had balrog (which may have had wings ) and winged serpents under his dominion.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
there arent too many of the valar that i liked. most of them seemed like mindless robotic servants of illuvatar. i liked ulmo and aule, they seemed to seperate themselves from the pack. tulkas was rather boring, all brawn and no brains, imagine that.

RÃ*an mentioned the significance of Ulmo having no siblings and no spouse, and he didn't seek the other Ainur's company in the Undying Lands, but stayed close to Middle-Earth. I wonder if Ulmo wandered alone because he was often dissenting with the other Ainur, or if it was the other way around, he had (and followed) his own ideas because he was alone? If you follow me.

[Rían]

(ps - my last post was a joke - no one take it seriously, please! "Ergl" just sounded so funny to me that I tried to play around with it.)

That's interesting about Morgoth wanting to fly, BoP. I just have BoLT II, but I don't recall it (but it's been quite a while since I read it - I prefer UT and MR! ). Could you try a quick check in the index to see if you could find a section to share? That would make a lot of sense that he would be jealous of an area that is Manwë's, and that he is in command of corrupted "bird"-like creatures, as opposed to Manwë's lordly and powerful eagles. I need to re-look at BoLT - I just can't seem to get over that "Tinwelent" name, though!

Yes, Ulmo's being alone is interesting. Perhaps even a third view, or a combination of your views, Artanis - Ilúvatar chose Ulmo to have the dissenting ideas because He knew that it wouldn't bother Ulmo to be alone with different ideas because of his personality. I like how Ulmo supports the other Valar, when the discussion is over and it's time for a decision, even when he does dissent - where is that part where JRRT says about Ulmo something like 'although he disagreed, he went along with their decision, because it is not the part of those who uphold authority to rebel against it if it doesn't suit them'. I could be way off, but I seem to remember something like that.

[Earniel]

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?

I think there is. Seven is often seen as a sacred number. I believe that in christianity it's the number of perfection. The pairing of them definately seems to have some significance. The abilities of each couple seen to unify the seperate fields of both partners. Manwë the sky and wind and Varda the stars above. Yavanna all the grows on the earth and Aulë the earth below. ect.... RÃ*an already made a summary of it.

Ulmo stands alone but has a couple of Maiar at his side: Ossë and Uinen. Whereas Ossë is the unruly and untrustworthy side of the sea and Uinen is the softer side as mariners in need call upon her. She's also capable of subduing Ossë temper. Together they form a sort of trinity. It reminds me sometimes of Triton, a seagod. But that's probably my overactive imagination.

I think it's very interesting that Tolkien assigned the extreme fields such as extreme cold (ice) and extreme heat (fire) to Melkor. Mostly evil characters have only a link with fire where I think Melkor has more depth. Extremes often lead to intolerance and we all know where that leads so I think it's very fitting to choose extremes as a field for Morgoth.

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.

Mainly I think it's because it is a tradition in mythology around the world to have female and male gods. And since he was trying to write a mythology for Brittain it would only seem natural that he made them that way. Looking for a reason within Middle earth, I'd say the valar took those forms to make the elves feel more comfortable around them.

I think there are reasons for the choice of siblings among the Valar. IMO it ties the valar as a group closer together, also the different aspects of the siblings often corresponds. Oromë and Ness are siblings. Nessa's delight is in deer and Oromë is the lords of the woods where I assume you normally find deer. Vána is Yavanna's younger sister. Incidently Vána's field is youth. Vána's flowers also correspond nicely with Yavanna's field. An interesting fact is that Tolkien made Lórien and Mandos brothers. If that isn't a direct reference to the Greek Hypnos (god of sleep) and Thanatos (god of death) I'm a purple chicken. Nienna is their sister and the grief and sorrow that she impersonates relates closely to death and sleep IMO.

Another interesting fact is that he wanted the gods to have children too, although he later changed that.

2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of Ossë? Contrast to the rebellions of Aulë and Melkor.

I think Ossë's rebellion highlights his link to the sea which is often seen as an treacherous, everchanging thing.

3. Opinions/thoughts on Olórin. It is undisputed that he is Gandalf? Compare his actions in this section to his actions in ME in LoTR.

I think it's pretty undisputed that that Gandalf is Olórin. Somewhere in my misty memory there is a remnant of a little poem, said by Gandalf that had the sentense (or something like it) it it: "Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten."

At the end of the three weeks it will be time for the next chapter. I am very disappointed at the lack of interest in the project, and the lack of volunteers taking chapter assignment.

Alas, if I could be certain that I would have sufficient time I would try one. I'll see what I can do, though.

Ergl? *looks up "Ergl" in Quenya dictionary* oh, ok ..
(ps - my last post was a joke - no one take it seriously, please! "Ergl" just sounded so funny to me that I tried to play around with it.)

I must admit I was a bit surprised. I even went to check that quote if he really had said 'Ergl'!

.....yet he had balrog (which may have had wings) ....

Okay so they might have had wings but can they FLY?

A long and probably boring post, I know. But I couldn't let one of my favorite chapters go by without at least one post, now could I? You can all wake up now.

[Rían]

Thanks, Eärniel, for the long (and NOT boring by any means) post!

I wasn't aware of Hypnos (god of sleep) and Thanatos (god of death) - yes, it sure sounds like Lórien and Mandos. And I like how Nienna is grouped with them.

I would say that Olórin is definitely Gandalf, too. There's several little tidbits in MR about Olórin, and it's nice to know he is Gandalf. It really makes Galdalf's personality in ME make more sense. I like how he is an "inspire-er" of others.

Did you really check to see if Feanor said "Ergl"? The "er" and "gil" definitions are from the Sil appendicies (I put those in to make the word sound more authentic!), then I put them together to match what you had typed

And that's what I meant by "number" - I was wondering if anyone else would catch it, and you did!

[Rían]

Hey BoP - you're absolutely right! I found a ref. in BoLT II, in "The Fall of Gondolin" :

Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwë in the air);

I'm glad you brought that up, I had completely forgotten that! Very interesting.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Okay so they might have had wings but can they FLY?

Which leads me to my next point: not all Morgoths 'winged' creations were successful.

BOLT 1, "The Coming of the Valar"

Those twain gathered now wings of power to themselves and fared swiftly through the three airs. Vaitya is that which is wrapped dark and sluggish about the world and without it, but Ilwe is blue and clear and flows among the stars, and last came they to Vilna that is grey and therein the birds fly safely.

BOLT 1, "The Tale of the Sun and the Moon"

"There walks Manwe Sulimo often far out beyond the stars and watches it with love, and he is very near the heart of Illuvatar...

But this have ever been and is yet the greatest bitterness to Melko, for in no wise of himself could he now forsake the bosom of the Earth, and belike ye shall yet hear how mightily his envy was increased when the great vessels of radiance set sail..."

BOLT 1, "The Hiding of Valinor"

Thereat did Tulkas laugh, saying naught might come now to Valinor save only by the topmost airs, "and Melko hath no power there..."

[BeardofPants]

Rian, you found the key quote in BOLT 2, before I could have a look, but I'll give it a quick skim any way.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
At the end of the three weeks it will be time for the next chapter. I am very disappointed at the lack of interest in the project, and the lack of volunteers taking chapter assignment.

You know what, Sister Golden Hair, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Just about everyone who does post in this forum has posted here, I think, and there are several people actively involved. The Silmarillion forum wasn't as frequented as some of the other forums to begin with, so we can't expect an enormous crowd.


I think those were some very perceptive comments, Earniel, and I enjoyed reading them . About the extremes and intolerance of Morgoth, the Maiar of the sea, those were some interesting meanings I hadn't looked at before. Thanks .


As for the Balrog . . . I personally don't know whether they could fly or not, but it seems likely. They weren't creations of Morgoth, if I remember correctly, but were corrupted Maiar that joined his side. They were spirit type beings, although they became at least partially attached to Arda, like Melkor and the others that came into Arda. I doubt that they would have wings if they were useless, although that particular Balrog had been buried underneath the mountains for a long time, so that might be some explanation for its inability to go soaring like an eagle when thrown into the chasm. Plus, immediately after its fall began, it became locked in combat with Gandalf. They didn't fall separately like in the movie.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know what, Sister Golden Hair, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Just about everyone who does post in this forum has posted here, I think, and there are several people actively involved. The Silmarillion forum wasn't as frequented as some of the other forums to begin with, so we can't expect an enormous crowd.

One of the reasons that I agreed to allow the project was a hope that it would attract a bit more traffic into this forum.

Hey Lief, why don't you take a couple chapters?

[Earniel]

Wow, people actually liked my post. There are still miracles in the world.

RÃ*an:
Did you really check to see if Feanor said "Ergl"? The "er" and "gil" definitions are from the Sil appendicies (I put those in to make the word sound more authentic!), then I put them together to match what you had typed

Yes, I did. It sounded so strange that I wanted to be certain.

BoP:
Which leads me to my next point: not all Morgoths 'winged' creations were successful.

Yet the winged dragons were some sort of success. If one forgets the fact that they were still beaten.

Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.

Sounds like a very big dragon, it would have taken some effort to get this beastie in the air. Maybe in the end Morgoth did discover the secret of flying so he could make winged dragons. But since he was cast beyond the Walls of the World he could not try so anew and we'll never know for certain.


SGH, if it would cheer you I'll volunteer for a chapter. I can't give more background reading than BOLT 1 and 2 but I can give it a shot. It'll be a challenge. If only someone will be kind enough to remind me when I have to post it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH, if it would cheer you I'll volunteer for a chapter. I can't give more background reading than BOLT 1 and 2 but I can give it a shot. It'll be a challenge. If only someone will be kind enough to remind me when I have to post it.

That would be great Earniel. That will be chapter two for you then. I have posted a new sticky with all the due dates for posting the chapters. You don't have to worry about not having a bunch of research material. Just do the best you can with what you have. the most important book to have of course is the Silmarillion

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Hey Lief, why don't you take a couple chapters?

Well, just now I'm rereading The Two Towers in preparation for the coming out of the movie; we'll be seeing it in precisely nine days by my brothers' count. All of us are strongly hyped up to see it; after that, I'll think about taking a chapter for the Sil .

[TigerWong]

Well, don't get too discouraged. I think this Silmarillion project is a great idea! It seems like a lot of people are participating, and I'm sure others are happy just reading the threads, especially new readers of the book.

Looking at your schedule, you're booked until next March, so I wouldn't be worried about the "lack of volunteers". I was kinda interested in doing the AKALLABETH or the RINGS OF POWER, but seeing as how they don't roll around until May 2004 (!), I didn't want to commit to something I might not be able to follow up on or forget about. Who knows what any of us will be doing THAT far in the future. 2 weeks might be more than enough time to discuss some of the shorter chapters.

[Dunadan]

Sorry I'm late to the party. Hope there's still some miruvor left in that punchbowl...

There are a lot of parallels with existing creation myths and mythologies, of course. We shouldn't be surprised, since JRRT himself was deeply religious. However, the element I love about the Sil is that Arda is created by the Music of the Ainur, like an orchestra. Thus, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This is not a "clockmaker" type myth; denizens of Arda have their own will and there is no deterministic sense in which events are pre-ordained.

Is Melkor the God of Pride?
My impression regarding Melkor was that his desire was to create for himself. His initial sin was pride, and belief that his will should prevail over others'. To me, this has moral resonance about how we (mis)use power, and links right through the Sil and LOTR to the likes of Saruman and even Ted Sandyman.

When it became apprarent that this is not possible, jealousy and hatred are born, and the will simply to destroy what others have created.

Very interesting contrast between Sauron and Melkor. Clearly, S learned a lot from Aule!

Were there Ainur who didn't enter Arda?
I seem to recall that not all of the Ainur chose to enter Arda. Is there any info in the secondary sources such as HOME about these? If they were involved in the Music, their personalities ought to be reflected in Arda.

cheers

d

PS - I'm also an Ulmo fan. I'm sure Manwe's a dude, but Ulmo was a bit more hands-on.

[Rían]

this is really strange - Dunadan, aren't there some posts missing, where we talked about the miruvor??

[Maedhros]

Who knows what any of us will be doing THAT far in the future. 2 weeks might be more than enough time to discuss some of the shorter chapters.

Well, some people take the Sil very seriously, and if the chapter would only be what is in the Published Silmarillion, who might be correct, but the idea of the discussion was to try and expand it more using HOME and Unfinished Tales.

RÃ*an mentioned the significance of Ulmo having no siblings and no spouse, and he didn't seek the other Ainur's company in the Undying Lands, but stayed close to Middle-Earth. I wonder if Ulmo wandered alone because he was often dissenting with the other Ainur, or if it was the other way around, he had (and followed) his own ideas because he was alone? If you follow me.

Perhaps, this might have something to do with the fact that Ulmo was the most skilled in music than the other Ainur.