The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by
my argument still stands: why did eru allow a rebelious being in a place where he could negatively affect the process? was it a surprise to any that melkor would rebel in arda? he rebeled to the face of eru, what makes you think he wouldnt rebel when he had no supervision? personnally i dont think that eru, an omnipotent god, was that naive.

I don't think that Ilúvatar, an omnipotent god, was that naive either. He knew what was going to happen. However, he was powerful enough to turn all that Morgoth did on his own into good, and he was generous enough not to force Morgoth into line with his own plans. To do that would have been to destroy free will. All of his creations, from the greatest to the smallest had the ability to rebel or turn to evil. Feanor and the Noldor are examples from the elves, the men have more examples than anyone, but oddly enough none come to mind just now, Sauron and the Balrogs are examples from the Maiar, Melkor from the Valar . . . all of Ilúvatar's creatures have the gift of free will, and how they use it is up to them.

But they cannot ruin Ilúvatar's plans, and all of their schemes are to nothing. Ilúvatar allowed Melkor to go to Arda, but what does that show? Simply his respect for free will, and the fact that he has in mind a greater scheme, about which Melkor hasn't any idea. Preventing all evil would have been to demolish free will, and that wasn't Ilúvatar's intention. Free will was what he wanted for his creatures, and that was a great and good gift. If they didn't have free will, then that would remove responsibility and justice. Removing any of these things would create puppets in a happy and joyful universe, enjoy bliss and some knowledge of goodness.

Not the kind of world Ilúvatar had in mind at all. His goal is righteous, but not everyone uses their free will to do good.

Because Ilúvatar can make the best from all events, good or bad, doesn't mean that he created the bad and can use only bad events. On the contrary, he wants good events, but if the enemy choose to do bad, then he will punish them and use what they did.

[MasterMothra]

those are all very good points and are all well taken. they may very well be the grand scheme of things, i dont know. the key word for me in the previous post was "seem".

i may not agree with your assumptions, but respect them nonethess.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
sorry, mr leif garret, i didnt know syntax was so important, my apologies.

Syntax?? syntax?? "allow" and "sent" are two TOTALLY different words, as Lief pointed out. There is a huge difference between the two.

maybe you can tell me what this quote means, since i am obviously incapable of doing it myself.

Now, now, MasterMothra, I know something about you that these people don't, and I'm gonna tell if you don't restrain your language a little bit! I know you like to make sure this isn't just a happy little "let's talk about the pretty elves" discussion, and I don't think it has been at all - these are very knowledgeable (rats, is that spellled right?) people here. Would you please, however, keep things a little more polite, and we'll all enjoy the discussion more. Thanks

[Rían]

As far as the music, I really don't know, but like Artanis, I'd like to hear people's ideas. I never thought of that question before, but my initial thoughts are:

(1) If you want to express many things together by talking, all you get is a loud, confused and obnoxious noise (think crowded train station or something similar). However, many musical "lines" may be sung together and be beautiful.

(2) In addition, music allows for many voices to sound at once and make a "whole" that is greater than the sum of its parts; i.e., all of the parts together made a beautiful harmonious melody that was much lovelier than each one singing their part one after another.

What do you people think? Does that make any sense?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Brilliant and beutiful, Rian.

[Rían]

Oh, thank you so much, Lefty! I had really never thought about it before, and as I sat and thought and drank my tea (it must have been the hot tea with cream and sugar that inspired me) those thoughts just occurred to me. It made a lot of sense to me, I'm so glad it made sense to someone else What a good question, Maedhros!

[Artanis]

i think of eru more as a force of nature. good and bad are labels we tend to place on things so that we may classify them.

I think we have to discuss what is good and what is bad within Tolkien's universe. Ilúvatar is the almighty Creator and he is therefore the One to decide what is good and what is evil. This may not be in line with our own moral standards in our world.

To me it seems that the will to dominate other creatures by fear or force is the uttermost evil within Ea. I think this is equal to turning against the will of Ilúvatar. Melkor was guilty of this when he descended into Arda, even if it wasn't in his conscious thoughts then. The rest of the Ainur and most of Ilúvatar's children strive to do good, and even if they don't always succeed, they want to fulfill the purposes of Ilúvatar, because they love him and trust him.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
why did eru allow a rebelious being in a place where he could negatively affect the process?

Like Lief have said, I don't think Ilúvatar had anything to fear from Melkor, within Arda or not. Ilúvatar is the uttermost power. He has the power to change the world after his own fashion, whenever he wants to. And he does use his power on certain occations, either directly or through the Valar, when the situation in the world tend to get out of hand. The drowning of Numenor and the altering of the shape of the world is an example.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
(1) If you want to express many things together by talking, all you get is a loud, confused and obnoxious noise (think crowded train station or something similar). However, many musical "lines" may be sung together and be beautiful.

(2) In addition, music allows for many voices to sound at once and make a "whole" that is greater than the sum of its parts; i.e., all of the parts together made a beautiful harmonious melody that was much lovelier than each one singing their part one after another.

What do you people think? Does that make any sense?

It makes perfectly sense RÃ*an, it's a wonderful idea. I want to add that in a musical piece it is also easy to discover when one (or more) of the musicians are not in harmony with the others.

I wonder whether Tolkien had any particular affection for music?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
It makes perfectly sense RÃ*an, it's a wonderful idea. I want to add that in a musical piece it is also easy to discover when one (or more) of the musicians are not in harmony with the others.

I wonder whether Tolkien had any particular affection for music?

Even if Tolkien did or did not have a particular affection for music, it just seems as though the creation springing from a great theme is so fitting to the story. Music seemed central even after that with the Children, especially the Elves. Some examples: the great minstrals among the Teleri and Noldor, Finrod's first meeting with Men and his chant with Sauron, Luthien singing Agband to sleep. Music seemed to be a great element to life in Middle-earth.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Brilliant and beutiful, Rian.

I agree with you. Those are some very insightful thoughts, RÃ*an.

[Maedhros]

Even if Tolkien did or did not have a particular affection for music, it just seems as though the creation springing from a great theme is so fitting to the story. Music seemed central even after that with the Children, especially the Elves.

I agree with that Sister of Nargothrond.
If you see The Letters of JRRT # 260:

I have little musical knowledge. Though I come of a musical family, owing to defects of education and opportunity as an orphan, such music as was in me was submerged (until I married a musician), or transformed into linguistic terms. Music gives me great pleasure and sometimes inspiration, but I remain in the position in reverse of one who likes to read or hear poetry but knows little of its technique or tradition, or of linguistic structure.

And this I find also interesting:

The Celts of old believed that the world was upheld and sustained by a single all-embracing melody: Oran Môr, they called it, the Great Music, and all creation was part of it. perhaps this is why Celtic music possesses the power to move us in unexpected ways - it touches that place deep in our hearts where legends still live, and we hear
again the strains of the Ancient Song. (Stephen R. Lawhead, 1996)

I think we have to discuss what is good and what is bad within Tolkien's universe. Ilúvatar is the almighty Creator and he is therefore the One to decide what is good and what is evil. This may not be in line with our own moral standards in our world.

I wonder at this thought. Is bad not in the end good. I seemed to recall this particular passage from the Published Silmarillion:

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

This makes me think about Melkor. Does Ilúvatar knows how Melkor will turn in the end, and that his "evil deeds" will be redressed and Arda Healed will be better than Arda Unmarred? In this case "evil" is used to create better place than the one we have.

[Keith K]

Why Music was used for the creation of the World?

While I don't know why music was chosen for the creation I am glad it was. I have always been fond of the Professors' creation theory. It is a wonderful allegory using a symphony as the setting. The infinate possibilities for various thematic combinations flowing in myriad directions from a central theme are quite suitable for a creation theory. It allows for "creative creation", with each artist/musician/ainur adding a unique aria to the opus.

This symphonic creation is also singular as far as creation theories go in our own human history. At least as far as I have heard. From Christianity on down to the Tree Gods of the Pygmies I have never heard of the universe coming about as the result of a musical!

[Lefty Scaevola]

You will note in SIL that all spells are sung (perhaps that includes chanting?) Note espesially the magical duel between Finrod and Sauron.

[Earniel]

I find music can move me and inspire me in a way no other thing can. It is elusive and yet eternal. Music is perhaps the ultimate way to create something. To create something with music is IMO to give the creation even more beauty. Also there is rhythm in each and every living thing: heart beats, breathing, etc.... What better way is there to create all this than with music?

Yes! I finally found time to join this thread!

[Rían]

(thanks, Artanis and Lief )

And that is so true, Artanis, about how with music, it's easy to tell when someone is not in tune with the others.

I remembered last night another "creation" story - from the Chronicles of Narnia by C. S. Lewis, Tolkien's good friend. From book 6, The Magician's Nephew :

In the darkness something was happening at last. A voice had begun to sing. It was very far away and Digory found it hard to decide from what direction it was coming. Sometimes it seemed to come from all directions at once. Sometimes he almost thought it was coming out of the earth beneath them. Its lower notes were deep enough to be the voice of the earth herself. There were no words. There was hardly even a tune. But it was, beyond comparison, the most beautiful noise he had ever heard. It was so beautiful he could hardly bear it. ..... Then two wonders happened at the same moment. One was that the voice was suddenly joined by other voices; more voices than you could possibly count. They were in harmony with it, but far higher up on the scale: cold, tingling, silvery voices. The second wonder was that the blackness overhead, all at once, was blazing with stars. They didn't come out gently one by one, as they do on a summer evening. One moment there had been nothing but darkness; next moment a thousand, thousand points of light leaped out - single stars, constellations, and planets, brighter and bigger than any in our world. .... you would have felt quite certain that it was the stars themselves who were singing, and that it was the First Voice, the deep one, which had made them appear and made them sing.

A long quote, but interesting, both in the similarities and differences.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You will note in SIL that all spells are sung (perhaps that includes chanting?) Note espesially the magical duel between Finrod and Sauron.

Yes, that is so moving. I especially like this part:

Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This makes me think about Melkor. Does Ilúvatar knows how Melkor will turn in the end, and that his "evil deeds" will be redressed and Arda Healed will be better than Arda Unmarred? In this case "evil" is used to create better place than the one we have.

I think I agree with you on that one. Where you go from that statement though is a lot more touchy, and liable to turn into a big clash of opinions.

If you use this to say that Ilúvatar is responsible for evil, I'd say that the only reason he's responsible for it is in allowing it to be. That is because he gave us free will. He didn't do the evil or make it, but it came from the goodness of one of his gifts. But he turned the wickedness that happened through it to good.

I don't think that this implies Ilúvatar has a hand in evil as well as good, though, simply because he allows his creations to do what they wish, and he turns what they do into good.

From what is visible of his character in the Silmarillion and LoTR is all good, and I'm willing to contest anything that is brought up against the uprightness of his character. His justice and punishment of evil are very discernable themes, and if he had evil in himself, he would be guilty of the ultimate hypocrisy. I don't believe that J.R.R. Tolkien would have created as the god of his world an ultimate hypocrite, or a creature with evil in itself.

All that is shown in the quote is that he won't tolerate evil . . . he will even turn it from being evil in the end so that there is nothing but perfection in the final product of his creation. It came without being a part of his will, but he has ultimate control and so can turn it to the goodness of his final creation.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Is bad not in the end good.

This makes me think about Melkor. Does Ilúvatar knows how Melkor will turn in the end, and that his "evil deeds" will be redressed and Arda Healed will be better than Arda Unmarred? In this case "evil" is used to create better place than the one we have.

Yes, because when someone tries to do evil, Ilúvatar takes notice and by his power changes it into a good thing, as is said in the quote you give from the Sil. But this, and the fact that Ilúvatar permits evil to happen, does not mean that he wanted it to happen. In fact evil deeds are on certain occasions punished. We don't know what Arda would have been like if Melkor had not rebelled. You may be right, but Arda may also have been Arda Remade from the very beginning. I tend to believe the latter.

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You will note in SIL that all spells are sung (perhaps that includes chanting?) Note espesially the magical duel between Finrod and Sauron.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair Even if Tolkien did or did not have a particular affection for music, it just seems as though the creation springing from a great theme is so fitting to the story. Music seemed central even after that with the Children, especially the Elves. Some examples: the great minstrals among the Teleri and Noldor, Finrod's first meeting with Men and his chant with Sauron, Luthien singing Agband to sleep. Music seemed to be a great element to life in Middle-earth.

I haven't particularly noticed this before, but now that you have pointed it out, it makes sense. Thanks, everyone!

[Rían]

An interesting bit from letter #212 re the Ainur and the music:

[The Ainur] interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introducted alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'.

A subtle but important difference - making "interpretations" was the proper response for created beings, and they found great joy in it; Melkor, however, made "alterations", thus claiming to be on equal footing with the One.

[Wayfarer]

It seems to me that Melkor is dominating this discussion, so I'd like to introduce some speculations on the other points.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Is the Universe Predefined?

"But unto man he gave a new gift, that they should be able to shape their lives beyond the music of tha ainur, which is fate to all other living things."

I think that clinches it. Much of the universe is-the shape of the world is a result of the music, and of the valar working to bring it about. But men are not bound by destiny. Each is truly 'Turambar'-master of fate.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?

I think that if melkor had not already fallen into pride, he would not have felt such shame. Observe Aules's actions when illuvatar confronts him about the dwarves: not only does he accept the chastisement and admit that he was wrong, he immediately seeks to rectify the situation. This is a sharp contrast to melkor who, though shamed, refuses to repent.

Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred?

Yes, and I think I can see the reason why. At the end of days, all who would marr arda will be defeated. The storm will have come and gone, and all will have weathered it or cracked.

Originally posted by Maedhros

I think that is very easily answered:

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme.

Now, this referance to 'the third theme' I think refers to the second of the musics that Ilúvatar set against the dischord of melkor. Remember? The first theme is that which eru originally set before the ainur, which they all palyed together. Then came the dischord of melkor, which continued until the end of the music. The second theme was like the first, but deeper and sad. The third theme was that which started soft, but grew, and took the most rtiumphant notes of the dischord and to itself. Finally, Ilúvatar played one note, which stopped all the other musics.

I think that some symbolism is evident here, especially since the music is responsible for the creation.

The first theme was played correctly-wioth all the ainur, including melkor, in harmony. I think this corrosponds to the original making of arda, which all working together.

The dischord represents the waging of warfare upon the valar by melkor.

The second theme is the renewed efforts of the valar agains melkor-it is changed, as the valar have change, but it (and they) are still fundamentally the same.

The third theme, the only one which we are specefically told about, represents the children of illuvatar. It is typical of them that, like the music, they can take even melkor's seeming victory and turn it to thier own triumph. I think this is the source of the beauty and tragedy of man-Beren, Turin, Farimir, Aragorn, all prevail even in the face of defeat. Just so with the elves; and we read of the fall of fingolfin, not with the looming dread of death and defeat, but with exhiliration. In this way, even the most dischordant notes can be turned into sweet music.