Why Books are Better than Drugs - Page 4

Starr Polish · 01-30-2002, 11:08 PM

I see this kind of 'open mindedness' (is that a word) in a lot of people.

"I'm open minded, so you should be open minded, but if your opinions aren't like mine, you can't be open minded, you stupid bigot"...hmm...okay.

Or "I HATE CHRISTIANITY ALL CHRISTIANS SUCK AND THEY ARE ALL BIGOTS". I have basically had this said to me by someone, and it actually made me laugh out loud, because this is actually the biggest case of bigotry and hypocrisy I have ever seen.

This isn't directed at anybody, just referring to the topic. I've seen Christians (and I am one) close their eyes to the fact that they are being hypocritical, and I've seen atheists/agnostics completely turn themselves around and backwards to prove that something doesn't exist.

One question to all those atheist who are bent on 'converting' Christians. Why? It's not like there is a reward for that person if they DO 'convert' (I hate that word), unlike Christianity.

FrodoFriend · 01-30-2002, 11:08 PM

I don't know, Sakata, telling someone that you're only trying to "save their soul" is rather condescending. I can see why Aragorn would get mad.

And I, for one, agree more with Aragorn than anyone else here. I am an atheist (or agnostic, whatever you want to call it).

Evolution and reincarnation are not incompatible doctrines. In fact, reincarnation actually seems more logical (to me, at least) than Heaven. Since everything else in the universe is continuously going through being reused and recycled, why not people's souls? Why would it be a one-way thing? That doesn't make much sense.

William Wallace - how could anyone be "pretty sure about" what happens when we die??? WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE!! In the end, Heaven and reincarnation and ceasing to exist are all just idle speculation. We don't know, and we never will, until we actually die. We don't know if there's a God either, and we don't know if there isn't one.

So let's discuss it, but there's really no point in getting angry. Nobody here is any more right than anybody else.

Starr Polish · 01-30-2002, 11:10 PM

Exactly FF. Getting angry about these things is pretty stupid. I admit it hurts me to find out if my friend is atheist/agnostic, BUT this gives me no right to go about judging them, or stop loving them, or get angry at them.

mirrille · 01-31-2002, 01:16 AM

What's wrong with reincarnation? Reincarnation is a really common concept. Seems to me Christianity is one of the few religions that doesn't have it. (Well, and Judaism and Islam, which I tend to lump together for historical reasons) It's metaphysically attractive because it emphasizes the cyclic nature of things. That's if you go into metaphysics. Religions are really big on circles. Come to think of it, real physics is also really big on circles. That's where all that trig you have to do comes from.

Hey Starr Polish! Are you in university or high school? Cuz for a biology major, you just have to get through the first year prereques, like first year physics, chem, calc, and then you get to do whatever you want to do, e.g. marine biology. Don't let math intimidate you. Haha! psych! Not my thing. I've been avoiding psych courses like the plague.

I guess it's for some people, not for others.

Anyways, evolution is cool. Evolution is important. Evolution keeps things going, otherwise, everything would die. Without evolution, everything we thought we knew about biology would just fall apart.

"Adaptation? What adaptation? " Can you imagine?

Christians get rewards for converting people? I shudder at the thought. I hope that was just a mistake.

ragamuffin92 · 01-31-2002, 01:28 AM

Basically, I believe that it's Jehovah's Witnesses who believe they get rewards for converting people, but technically, they are not Christian, since they believe that Jesus is not God (part of the eternal Trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit), but a created being (an angel). (I know I will probably get arguments here, and people are entitled to disagree, but I stand by what I've said.)

Jesus told his disciples to go throughout the world, preaching the gospel and making disciples of all people, and believers do this out of love for their Lord, not to get rewards.

Starr Polish · 01-31-2002, 01:29 AM

Oi...no, Christians don't get rewards for 'converting' people (and I hate that word, I hate it with a passion). Christians believe in heaven, and that the only way to get there is through Christ. A true Christian wants others to go to heaven as well, which is why they should try to 'convert' people. But just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are one, and everyone interprets the faith differently. It's actually encouraged (Law of liberty, Romans 14)

I'm in high school...and my mind is very screwed up. I'm a right hander, terrible in math, I love to write, but I don't always understand the mechanics of English (misplaced modifiers???) but I excel amazingly in biology classes. ::shrug:: I dunno, acting seems like something I really want to persue right now.

Laurelyn · 01-31-2002, 11:02 AM

If you want to attempt to save someone's soul, I'll open another thread somewhere and you can holler at me. I don't think that Aragorn is listening to you, other than to luagh at you.

Quote:

I don't know, Sakata, telling someone that you're only trying to "save their soul" is rather condescending. I can see why Aragorn would get mad.

And I, for one, agree more with Aragorn than anyone else here. I am an atheist (or agnostic, whatever you want to call it).

Evolution and reincarnation are not incompatible doctrines. In fact, reincarnation actually seems more logical (to me, at least) than Heaven. Since everything else in the universe is continuously going through being reused and recycled, why not people's souls? Why would it be a one-way thing? That doesn't make much sense.

William Wallace - how could anyone be "pretty sure about" what happens when we die??? WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE!! In the end, Heaven and reincarnation and ceasing to exist are all just idle speculation. We don't know, and we never will, until we actually die. We don't know if there's a God either, and we don't know if there isn't one.

So let's discuss it, but there's really no point in getting angry. Nobody here is any more right than anybody else.

Well said, FrodoFriend.
I'm actually with you two; I don't believe in God. There is some stuff I believe in, but to "God" I say; Bah.

Quote:

Another docter's bill, a lawyer's bill
Another cute cheap thrill
You know you love him
If you put him in your will, but
Who will save your soul
If you don't get a roll on . . .
La dada dada da. . .

Who will save your soul, sung by Jewel.

Aragorn · 01-31-2002, 11:11 AM

Okay....I'm sorry to break it to you people but I never got mad. I just thought you might actually respond if I typed that using caps and exclamation points. The only thing I'm mad about is the Christians reading one of my posts about 100 times just to find one error that may help them "defeat" me. To Starr Polish: I'm not trying to make any Christians stop believing in god. I'm just standing up for what I believe in instead of letting all you people bashing my theories on life and death.

Starr Polish · 01-31-2002, 04:17 PM

I wasn't trying to imply that you were, that was just a general question.

::shrug:: I have Wiccan, atheist and agnostic friends, and I'll happily discuss religion with them. I hate that term as well

Man...I'm a hater of words. It's just...it gets so out of hand sometimes, that people forget WHY they are what they are sometimes.

Did that make any sense?

William Wallace · 01-31-2002, 07:09 PM

So are you avoiding my answer Aragorn or have you just not come up with something to defend yourself yet?

William Wallace · 01-31-2002, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mirrille

Christians get rewards for converting people? I shudder at the thought. I hope that was just a mistake.

You people ever heard the expression "store up your treasures in heaven?" Of course I am trying to save people because I love them, but God says we will be rewarded in heaven as well.

Sakata · 01-31-2002, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn
The only thing I'm mad about is the Christians reading one of my posts about 100 times just to find one error that may help them "defeat" me.

Sorry Aragorn but I dont need to read your post 100 times, nor 2 times. I am not trying to "defeat" you either, I am trying to have a conversation with you.

Quote:

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE!!

Maybe thats what you think, but I know the truth with all my mind, body and soul. Thats what I am trying to get across to you, the truth really isnt that hard to see if you only open your eyes

Wayfarer · 01-31-2002, 07:21 PM

But Christians cant convert people. Only God can. So it would be pointless for them to expect a reward, wouldn't it?

***HOBBIT*** · 01-31-2002, 08:48 PM

Um ok thats great everyone. Now move back to whatever this thread was originally about (whatever that was). A thing this board does not need is another big discussion on religion.
Fact: Nothing any of you say will change how anyone thinks, feels, and believes. We all know how you all feel now.......so whats the point of saying anything else on the topic? Exactly, don't. (plus, I don't know about you guys, but I could care less what religion each of you are.......everyone is equal. I don't judge anyone by what their religion or beliefs are. I really could care less) No religion is right or wrong. You shouldn't get mad at Aragorn because a lot of people feel that way. Its called Science

Ok that was my little speach. I was going to make it longer and more meaningful, but that might cause controversy.

Why when you hear 'bible' do you have to launch into a big argument over whos right and whos wrong...........just stop it.

If this thread was originally about books, well there are forums about books ya know.

mirrille · 01-31-2002, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Why when you hear 'bible' do you have to launch into a big argument over whos right and whos wrong...........just stop it.

Hear hear!

People should be able to talk about bibles without generating all this fuss. Let's be mature about it. Some people are into this stuff and some people aren't. And either way is completely OK. It's a very personal thing, isn't it?

I, for one, would love to be able to talk about bibles and korans and taotechings and sutras without people getting all emotional, but that seems too much to expect. Religious books can be interesting, but all this unnecessary me vs. you is just tiresome.

Sakata · 01-31-2002, 09:40 PM

Who’s getting emotional? We are having a conversation; people don’t get angry if a thread wanders to say their pet or something, it is just what people want to talk about. HOBBIT why is it the last thing this forum needs? People obviously like discussing this so why come in and break it up? it is not like we are cussing and tearing each others eyes out

You guys have repeatedly said that no ones minds are being changed so what’s the point? the point is that having your beliefs challenged is what makes them stronger (usually) I know my debates with afro-elf have strengthened my faith more than anything and I would assume it would be the same in whatever you believe in. So even if we are not going to end this forum with everyone believing one thing, at least a few people know better why they believe. And lastly if you dont like debates then by all means dont read them! I am sure there are plenty of other forums that are discussing books

***HOBBIT*** · 01-31-2002, 09:48 PM

Sakata, you are getting emotional

I don't think that anyone wants to discuss this. Hmm maybe I'm wrong. Ssssshhhhhhh.

FrodoFriend · 01-31-2002, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Maybe thats what you think, but I know the truth with all my mind, body and soul. Thats what I am trying to get across to you, the truth really isnt that hard to see if you only open your eyes

See, now that's condescending, and it sort of pisses me off.

I know with all my mind, body, and soul, that I do not know what comes after death. And I won't, until I die.

What makes you so great that you are immediately right and I am wrong?

My eyes are not closed. I am willing to consider all options, from all religions and philosophies. I don't have to stick to one idea.

When I find an explanation that rings true, I will believe it. And when I die, I'll know for sure.

Besides, why do you really want to know? I see Death as a great mystery. Someday we'll all find out what it is. I can wait until then. It makes it less scary, anyway.

Wayfarer · 01-31-2002, 09:56 PM

I can't help wondering why it's ok for Non Christians to tell christians how wrong they are, but not vice versa.

FrodoFriend · 01-31-2002, 09:58 PM

What? I never said Christians are wrong. All I'm saying is I don't know. Nobody does.

01-30-2002, 11:08 PM	#61
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	I see this kind of 'open mindedness' (is that a word) in a lot of people. "I'm open minded, so you should be open minded, but if your opinions aren't like mine, you can't be open minded, you stupid bigot"...hmm...okay. Or "I HATE CHRISTIANITY ALL CHRISTIANS SUCK AND THEY ARE ALL BIGOTS". I have basically had this said to me by someone, and it actually made me laugh out loud, because this is actually the biggest case of bigotry and hypocrisy I have ever seen. This isn't directed at anybody, just referring to the topic. I've seen Christians (and I am one) close their eyes to the fact that they are being hypocritical, and I've seen atheists/agnostics completely turn themselves around and backwards to prove that something doesn't exist. One question to all those atheist who are bent on 'converting' Christians. Why? It's not like there is a reward for that person if they DO 'convert' (I hate that word), unlike Christianity. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-30-2002, 11:08 PM	#62
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	I don't know, Sakata, telling someone that you're only trying to "save their soul" is rather condescending. I can see why Aragorn would get mad. And I, for one, agree more with Aragorn than anyone else here. I am an atheist (or agnostic, whatever you want to call it). Evolution and reincarnation are not incompatible doctrines. In fact, reincarnation actually seems more logical (to me, at least) than Heaven. Since everything else in the universe is continuously going through being reused and recycled, why not people's souls? Why would it be a one-way thing? That doesn't make much sense. William Wallace - how could anyone be "pretty sure about" what happens when we die??? WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE!! In the end, Heaven and reincarnation and ceasing to exist are all just idle speculation. We don't know, and we never will, until we actually die. We don't know if there's a God either, and we don't know if there isn't one. So let's discuss it, but there's really no point in getting angry. Nobody here is any more right than anybody else. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-30-2002, 11:10 PM	#63
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Exactly FF. Getting angry about these things is pretty stupid. I admit it hurts me to find out if my friend is atheist/agnostic, BUT this gives me no right to go about judging them, or stop loving them, or get angry at them. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-31-2002, 01:28 AM	#65
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	Basically, I believe that it's Jehovah's Witnesses who believe they get rewards for converting people, but technically, they are not Christian, since they believe that Jesus is not God (part of the eternal Trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit), but a created being (an angel). (I know I will probably get arguments here, and people are entitled to disagree, but I stand by what I've said.) Jesus told his disciples to go throughout the world, preaching the gospel and making disciples of all people, and believers do this out of love for their Lord, not to get rewards. __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

01-31-2002, 01:29 AM	#66
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Oi...no, Christians don't get rewards for 'converting' people (and I hate that word, I hate it with a passion). Christians believe in heaven, and that the only way to get there is through Christ. A true Christian wants others to go to heaven as well, which is why they should try to 'convert' people. But just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are one, and everyone interprets the faith differently. It's actually encouraged (Law of liberty, Romans 14) I'm in high school...and my mind is very screwed up. I'm a right hander, terrible in math, I love to write, but I don't always understand the mechanics of English (misplaced modifiers???) but I excel amazingly in biology classes. ::shrug:: I dunno, acting seems like something I really want to persue right now. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-31-2002, 01:16 AM	#64
mirrille Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 479	What's wrong with reincarnation? Reincarnation is a really common concept. Seems to me Christianity is one of the few religions that doesn't have it. (Well, and Judaism and Islam, which I tend to lump together for historical reasons) It's metaphysically attractive because it emphasizes the cyclic nature of things. That's if you go into metaphysics. Religions are really big on circles. Come to think of it, real physics is also really big on circles. That's where all that trig you have to do comes from. Hey Starr Polish! Are you in university or high school? Cuz for a biology major, you just have to get through the first year prereques, like first year physics, chem, calc, and then you get to do whatever you want to do, e.g. marine biology. Don't let math intimidate you. Haha! psych! Not my thing. I've been avoiding psych courses like the plague. I guess it's for some people, not for others. Anyways, evolution is cool. Evolution is important. Evolution keeps things going, otherwise, everything would die. Without evolution, everything we thought we knew about biology would just fall apart. "Adaptation? What adaptation? " Can you imagine? Christians get rewards for converting people? I shudder at the thought. I hope that was just a mistake.

01-31-2002, 11:11 AM	#68
Aragorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Anywhere but where I should be. Posts: 369	Okay....I'm sorry to break it to you people but I never got mad. I just thought you might actually respond if I typed that using caps and exclamation points. The only thing I'm mad about is the Christians reading one of my posts about 100 times just to find one error that may help them "defeat" me. To Starr Polish: I'm not trying to make any Christians stop believing in god. I'm just standing up for what I believe in instead of letting all you people bashing my theories on life and death. __________________ And they carried them to the flatlands But they died along the way And they built up with their bare hands What we still can't do today. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO till the day I die.

01-31-2002, 04:17 PM	#69
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	I wasn't trying to imply that you were, that was just a general question. ::shrug:: I have Wiccan, atheist and agnostic friends, and I'll happily discuss religion with them. I hate that term as well Man...I'm a hater of words. It's just...it gets so out of hand sometimes, that people forget WHY they are what they are sometimes. Did that make any sense? __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-31-2002, 07:09 PM	#70
William Wallace Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 18	So are you avoiding my answer Aragorn or have you just not come up with something to defend yourself yet? __________________ Everyone dies, but not everyone truly lives... Last edited by William Wallace : 01-31-2002 at 07:12 PM.

01-31-2002, 07:21 PM	#73
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	But Christians cant convert people. Only God can. So it would be pointless for them to expect a reward, wouldn't it? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-31-2002, 08:48 PM	#74
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	Um ok thats great everyone. Now move back to whatever this thread was originally about (whatever that was). A thing this board does not need is another big discussion on religion. Fact: Nothing any of you say will change how anyone thinks, feels, and believes. We all know how you all feel now.......so whats the point of saying anything else on the topic? Exactly, don't. (plus, I don't know about you guys, but I could care less what religion each of you are.......everyone is equal. I don't judge anyone by what their religion or beliefs are. I really could care less) No religion is right or wrong. You shouldn't get mad at Aragorn because a lot of people feel that way. Its called Science Ok that was my little speach. I was going to make it longer and more meaningful, but that might cause controversy. Why when you hear 'bible' do you have to launch into a big argument over whos right and whos wrong...........just stop it. If this thread was originally about books, well there are forums about books ya know. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

01-31-2002, 09:40 PM	#76
Sakata Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 216	Who’s getting emotional? We are having a conversation; people don’t get angry if a thread wanders to say their pet or something, it is just what people want to talk about. HOBBIT why is it the last thing this forum needs? People obviously like discussing this so why come in and break it up? it is not like we are cussing and tearing each others eyes out You guys have repeatedly said that no ones minds are being changed so what’s the point? the point is that having your beliefs challenged is what makes them stronger (usually) I know my debates with afro-elf have strengthened my faith more than anything and I would assume it would be the same in whatever you believe in. So even if we are not going to end this forum with everyone believing one thing, at least a few people know better why they believe. And lastly if you dont like debates then by all means dont read them! I am sure there are plenty of other forums that are discussing books __________________ "When evil people come to destroy me, when my enemies and foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though a mighty army surrounds me, my heart will know no fear." -Psalms 27:2-3 -Dare you venture into Gollum's Lair? JESUS LIVES!

01-31-2002, 09:48 PM	#77
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	Sakata, you are getting emotional I don't think that anyone wants to discuss this. Hmm maybe I'm wrong. Ssssshhhhhhh. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

01-31-2002, 09:56 PM	#79
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I can't help wondering why it's ok for Non Christians to tell christians how wrong they are, but not vice versa. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-31-2002, 09:58 PM	#80
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	What? I never said Christians are wrong. All I'm saying is I don't know. Nobody does. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

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